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Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by the_gastropod on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:45AM (#19572908)
Bear in mind only ~45% of NYC residents own cars. Yet, we all pay taxes to pay for maintaining their infrastructure.

Everyone paying taxes to support some is fine when that thing is beneficial to society at large (e.g., public education, fire departments, welfare, etc.) I don't think driving counts as an activity that should be subsidized by the taxpayer.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by dcosson on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:56AM (#19573052)
If you ever order something online or get food delivery or take a taxi or uber you do use the roads, and the number of people who do those things somewhat regularly is a lot closer to 100%. But you might still be using the roads a lot less than someone who drives to and from work every day. So some combination of tax money and tolls/congestion pricing seems to make the most sense from this usage based angle.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by a_c_s on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:43PM (#19574357)
In NYC (at least in Manhattan where congestion pricing is being implemented) food delivery is primarily done via bicycle, sometimes via subway or walking, very rarely by vehicle.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by qmanjamz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:48PM (#19575772)
Are they flying bicycles?
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by ocschwar on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:22PM (#19579398)
No, but they are cyclists who would benefit from having an easier ride thanks to less car traffic.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by CountSessine on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:02AM (#19573124)
So some combination of tax money and tolls/congestion pricing seems to make the most sense from this usage based angle.

No, it doesn't. Paying through general revenue doesn't make any sense at all. Congestion pricing is beautiful because only the people who use it will pay it, and that includes your examples. People who take Ubers or order something online or get food delivery will still pay congestion pricing, but they'll pay through increased prices.

We will end up paying some combination of tax money and tolls/congestion pricing, but it most certainly doesn't make the most sense.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by strictnein on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:29PM (#19575581)
Everyone uses the roads. There's no one who doesn't either use them for transportation, or receive goods brought in on them.

You're not going to avoid these fees because you don't drive, you'll just be paying for them through higher prices on the goods you buy.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by austhrow743 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @07:40PM (#19578234)
You wont be paying them equally on all goods. The small good will gain a cost advantage over the large good. The digital good will gain a cost advantage over the physical good. The good delivered during non peak hours will gain a cost advantage over the good delivered during rush hour. The good delivered by drone will gain a cost advantage over the good delivered by land vehicle.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by strictnein on Friday April 05, 2019 @04:41PM (#19586810)
The "digital good"? Drone delivery? We're talking real life here, not a William Gibson novel.

You're basically saying that the lower/middle class folks driving those delivery trucks will simply have to work at night, so you can avoid paying for your plan.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by the_gastropod on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:02AM (#19573117)
Absolutely! And as long as those delivery trucks, taxis, etc. pay the congestion pricing, it'll get priced into their services too.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by leetcrew on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:47AM (#19573681)
while we're at it, let's make the congestion pricing proportional to some power of vehicle weight so that it also reflects the cost of road maintenance.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by v_lisivka on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:58AM (#19573841)
Drivers pay fuel taxes already. Fuel taxes are proportional to vehicle weight and power.

IMHO, it better to tax normalized_areanormalized_weightnormalized_congestion . For example, if vehicle is 30% spacer than average, has 50% more weight per space than average, and uses road at peak hour when road usage is 50% more than average, then it should pay 1.3 x 1.5 x 1.5 = ~3x tax. If owner want to reduce tax, then it should use smaller, lighter car, and use it at off-peak hours, e.g. 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.5 = 0.4.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by rxhernandez on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:27PM (#19574180)
I mean, are they really proportional to weight and power? My Cayman weighs less than 3000 lbs, uses very little of it's power, in traffic, and gets 12-16 mpg (around 30 in no traffic). My rx300 weighed nearly 4000 lbs and would get 21-23 mpg in no traffic. My rx300 saw almost no traffic whereas my Cayman sees a lot simply because my last job didn't care whether or not I came into work (unless there was a meeting I needed to go to).
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by mikestew on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:54PM (#19574489)
To top it off with more extreme anecdata, our Mercedes Sprinter-based RV gets 15 mpg, similar to your Cayman, but fully-loaded it weighs 11,000 lbs. (source: truck stop scale).

Weight or axles, but fuel tax isn't the way to do this. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to come up with the sedan MPG necessary to beat a 40,000 lbs. semi that gets, say, 3 MPG. (And, BTW, semis haven't done as poorly as 3mpg for a long time.)

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by leetcrew on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:14PM (#19575393)
the poster you are replying to misunderstood my sentence. there's no reason to directly tax powerful vehicles, unless you are using it as a weird proxy for fuel efficiency, which is already captured by per gallon fuel taxes.

I'm saying we should tax vehicles in proportion to some integer power of vehicle weight, since the road damage is superlinear with respect to vehicle weight. a big truck that weighs ten times as your Cayman does much more than ten times the damage. since we're trying to fairly distribute the costs of transit, the operators of these vehicles should be paying the lion's share of maintenance costs.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by WillPostForFood on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:56AM (#19573053)
On the other hand, drivers pay ~$.45 a gallon in gas tax, and at least 30% of that goes to the MTA.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by hannasanarion on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:30PM (#19574913)
Usage taxes (gas and registration fees) only cover 54% of road expenditures in New York. The other 46% comes out of the public fund that could be spent elsewhere.[1]

1. https://taxfoundation.org/statelocal-road-spending-covered-u...

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by entropicdrifter on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:48PM (#19575095)
That's its own separate issue, don't you think? The gas tax should be raised since it's a progressive way to penalize those who waste it and damage the environment as well as fund the roads in proportion to the damage they cause to them (since larger vehicles that cause more damage also use more gas)
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by paulgb on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:18PM (#19576082)
This is an easy tax to avoid if you commute from out of state each day. (In fact, it's a hard tax not to avoid given the scarcity of gas stations in Manhattan)
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by jdhn on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:58AM (#19573837)
For those wondering where this number came from, here's[0] an article with more details.

[0] https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/nys-leaky-gas-taxe...

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by enraged_camel on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:54AM (#19573785)
Sorry, but are you suggesting you don't benefit from roads if you don't personally drive on them? I haven't had my morning coffee yet but that's how I read your post.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by the_gastropod on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:32PM (#19575614)
No, sorry. I'm suggesting that there are vastly varying degrees of road use. A daily commuter benefits from (and causes more damage to) roads than a non-car owner. Both of these people benefit from deliveries to grocery stores, mail trucks, etc, and they will pay for them through the congestion pricing
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by C1sc0cat on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:09PM (#19573971)
Would you allow card drivers to opt out of paying for the metro or busses then
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by hannasanarion on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:33PM (#19574955)
They can already do that, by not buying tickets.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by C1sc0cat on Friday April 05, 2019 @07:16AM (#19581440)
I was talking about the Taxes that subsidize public transport DUH
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by qmanjamz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:47PM (#19575760)
Yeah, and the other 55% use the sidewalks and the subway which the entire city helps subsidize.

If we're going to cut funding for things that you don't personally use, we should cut public education before the roads. The roads are absolutely critical to the economy. Your kid learning Shakespeare is not.