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Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by Talyen42 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:01AM (#19571106)
As an employed person making 100k, if given UBI I would quit and not do anything productive-to-society for most of the rest of my life. So yes, that is a legitimate argument. The counter-argument is that the benefit coming from more people pursuing entrepreneurial/risk-taking/passion-driven endeavors will OUTWEIGH the lazy fucks like me.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by r3bl on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:17AM (#19571246)
Usually the goal of UBI is to lift everyone above the poverty line, not to make everyone's lives comfortable.

If you're happy living as a lazy fuck just shy of poverty, you're welcome to do so. If you want some comfort, security, and the ability to not anticipate each 1st of the month, you'd probably still want to work.

I personally think that UBI is a requirement for us to be able to say that we each have a fair shot at success. Nobody should worry about having a roof over their head or providing food on the table. We have plenty of both for each human in the world already.

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:05AM (#19571148)
The problem is whole I'd like to think they would, I think people will gradually get lazier as they get used to it. Most people do the minimum required now; what makes everyone think they will keep that same level of productivity arbitrarily when it's not the minimum liveable?
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:10AM (#19571189)
I'd suggest looking at retirement- one of the important facets of retirement is the encouragement to continue contributing to society once retired because it is always necessary to be productive in some way or form for the human condition as we understand it. It is psychologically damaging to not be constantly doing stuff that is at least mildly fulfilling in some way. If a sizeable portion or even a majority of people recieved UBI we would quickly learn as a population what's always been advised to our elderly.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:14AM (#19571212)
How do you propose to do this? We have a lot of trouble doing it with old people already.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:18AM (#19571255)
Do we? I'm unaware of that, actually. I was under the impression it was widely known that retired people are the sizeable portion of those who volunteer for anything in particular, and there's the existing tropes of retired people getting into art and fitness, and community activities. Book clubs. Crochet/knitting clubs. Bingo. Dancing.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:22AM (#19571292)
A sizeable portion, maybe, but certainly not all (and probably not even most). Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do? Let alone pay them for?
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by ams6110 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:28AM (#19571343)
Exactly. Those are time killing activities to keep from staring out the window and losing your mind. Which is also a big problem for the elderly and unemployed.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by moorhosj on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:47AM (#19572204)
Or, we could view them as “happiness activities”. In labor economics it is called leisure and the goal of people is to optimize between income and leisure.

I know lots of employed people who spend their days “staring out the window losing their mind”. It seems we have over optimized in the wrong direction (towards work and away from leisure).

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:24AM (#19572628)
"Happiness activities" are fine, but I'm not sure they should be subsidized by taxes.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by moorhosj on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:25PM (#19574847)
They already are subsidized in plenty of places (sports stadiums and public parks for example).

It raises a fundamental question about the government's role and it's goals. We tend focus on maximizing productivity and other countries focus more on maximizing health/happiness. Even the way Americans talk about education is through the lenses of creating more productive workers as opposed to something like creating more enriched citizens.

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:13AM (#19571853)
"Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do?"

You also ignored my first and more explained upon example, volunteering. Is there a reason for that?

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:37AM (#19572105)
Volunteering is one possibility. People are just going to replace their jobs with doing free work entirely? If not, what else will they do? According to you, crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:37AM (#19572103)
Volunteering is one possibility. People are just going to replace their jobs with doing free work? If not, what else will they do? According to you, crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by kingkawn on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:19AM (#19571267)
The gift of ubi is society saying, “we are here to help you without compelling you to contribute in any specific way. But if you don’t contribute in some way, we may lose the ability to help people. here and now is your chance to choose for yourself how to keep the world afloat and vibrant. You have our support. We are looking forward to seeing how you choose to support the world in turn.”
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by ams6110 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:24AM (#19571305)
Honestly I think about 5% of people will be motivated by that sentiment.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by kingkawn on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:33AM (#19572056)
Probably more than the number of people who feel deeply motivated under the current setup.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by 0-_-0 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:30AM (#19571367)
I believe the "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" approach has already been tried many times over the world in the 20th century and failed every single time. As E. O. Wilson (a world leading expert in studying ants) said about communism/socialism: “Great Idea. Wrong Species.”
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by kingkawn on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:32AM (#19572048)
Those systems viciously enforced a centralized vision of what each person should do. This is not that, this is true autonomy.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by glitchc on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:18AM (#19571265)
Let’s not rail on someone simply because they provided a counter-example to disprove the original assertion that everyone on UBI would do something productive with their time.

Given that he is strictly providing a personal anecdote on what he would do with the money and extra time, the responses suggest that some people are quite judgemental about how other people spend their own money.

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:07AM (#19571169)
I'm assuming you'd also downgrade your lifestyle from a 100k/yr to the median individual income or less? (Not being snarky, genuinely curious as to your thought process regarding quitting 100k/yr income because you can survive off 25-30k/yr or something)
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by lr4444lr on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:15AM (#19571223)
After taxes on the 100K plus the costs of commuting and childcare, that difference might not even be so stark.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by leetcrew on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:32AM (#19571390)
depends what kind of UBI we are considering. if you get $10k each for you, your wife (assuming you are married), and each child, you might be somewhere close to breaking even after taxes and the expenses you mentioned. if only you and your wife get the $10k, you're looking at a pretty tight budget.

imo, only the latter setup is reasonable. I'm all for giving individuals the freedom to float around for a while figuring out what the want to do, or even subsist for their whole lives if they don't "click" with any work that's valuable to the market. but I don't think it's fair to make the taxpayers support however many children you decide to have.

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by perfunctory on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:15AM (#19571230)
I am employed and making more than 100K and still I am not doing anything productive for society. So even if I quit given UBI and become "unproductive" it will have no meaningful impact on anything.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by ams6110 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:27AM (#19571331)
You're presumably doing something productive for somebody who's willing to pay you $100K for it. Or do you work for the government?
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by perfunctory on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:58AM (#19571692)
It's complicated but in general if somebody is willing (or has to) to pay you it's not per se productive. In a society where everyone's basic needs are guaranteed to be covered we both would have made different choices.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by chrisco255 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:06AM (#19571160)
You can't have a UBI without massive taxation. Massive taxation increases the risk of doing business. The higher the risks, the less entrepreneurship a country will see.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by perfunctory on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:19AM (#19571266)
> Massive taxation increases the risk of doing business

I encourage you to make a list of countries ordered by taxation level, and another one ordered by the risk of doing business. And then compare the two.

Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by ams6110 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:39AM (#19571472)
I'd phrase it as "massive taxation reduces the reward of doing business" and therefore, assuming equivalent risk, some number of potential entrepreneurs (and their investors) will decide it's not worth it.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by chrisco255 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:46AM (#19572192)
If you're thinking that it's instructive to compare nations by tax rates in isolation, as if it's an "all things being equal" comparison I would challenge that on many levels.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by swiley on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:10AM (#19571187)
The argument is that there’s less personal risk sine a failed business won’t result in the founders becoming homeless.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by mises on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:15AM (#19571227)
But there's a lot more risk for the investors, and there's a lot less money for companies to buy their products.
Re:Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Ha... by swiley on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:36PM (#19592586)
Oh dear, the poor investors, That's a catastrophe right there.