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Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alex_hitchins on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @10:41AM (#19563710)
The message it sends to me is, never visit America. I appreciate horrible things likely happen in my own country, but this is just disgusting.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by tyfon on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:51AM (#19564367)
That's my take as well and has been for a while. Even if I'm not of a segment of people that gets selected for "random searches" I don't trust them to believe I have no facebook account etc when they ask for the password.

The risk of travelling there is simply too high now.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by txcwpalpha on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:16PM (#19565148)
I think you mean "never visit Anywhere", since the UK (where you say you're from) does this exact same type of search and seizure, even to UK citizens. You could be subject to it when returning home from any trip abroad, not just the US.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alex_hitchins on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:13AM (#19569733)
> I appreciate horrible things likely happen in my own country

Yes, I know (as stated above). By no means am I saying it couldn't. Still, it doesn't excuse Americas practices in any way.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by gist on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:12PM (#19564574)
> the message it sends to me is, never visit America

Message? So you read one story and a bunch of HN comments and that is how you decide?

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by GordonS on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:20PM (#19565195)
It's not just one story though - there have been plenty stories and comments on HN, as well as other places.

I'd be surprised if anyone who regularly travels to the US hasn't found it to be extremely unpleasant at times. A while back I spent 6 months or so going back and forth from the UK to Houston or Atlanta, and every time I absolutely hated going through immigration. I've travelled to dozens of countries, and literally everywhere I've found the border guards to be friendly - except the US. Every time they behaved like power-hungry bullies, or I saw them behaving that way towards others. One time I travelled with a female colleague who was basically harassed by ridiculous questions from a very angry and loud border guard for no reason at all. He wasn't satisfied until she was in tears.

Another time there was a really long queue after getting off a flight (think it took over an hour to get to the desk), and there was a pregnant woman in the queue who seemed unwell and wanted to sit down - a guard shouted at her to stay in line, refused to get her a chair, and refused to let her jump forward in the queue (despite prompting from willing fellow passengers).

So the reason people don't want to travel to the US? Because it's a fucking horrible experience.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by gist on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:59PM (#19566156)
> there have been plenty stories and comments on HN, as well as other places.

We have ZERO data on the probability of this happening to someone. What we do know is that when it happens to certain people and they have some kind of notoriety or the ability to get noticed we hear about it. That means there is a non rational reaction from people which makes it seem like any one person stands a large chance of having the same experience. Obviously they have not the time or resources to doing this on any widespread basis. Hence it's a small risk. Ditto for that matter to letting them see what is on your phone. Don't want to sound like the 'if you have nothing to hide' guy (Eric Schmidt) but honestly is it such a big deal? [1]

[1] By that token I have no clue why people would allow complete and total strangers access to where they live (or drive them) which to me seems like a much greater risk. (Not saying the OP did this).

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by GordonS on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:27PM (#19566416)
I agree that it would be nice to get 'real' number on this, rather than relying solely on empirical evidence. But given the nature of it, I don't see how that's possible.

When I mentioned other stories and comments, I wasn't only referring to those by people with "notoriety or the ability to get noticed" - indeed, I was mainly referring to randoms (such as myself, and BTW I have no notoriety and am an introvert).

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alexmlamb2 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:27PM (#19565891)
I'm a US citizen, and my worst experience has been with Canadian border patrol (I'm not saying this is general, just my experience).
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by zimmund on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:51PM (#19564930)
OP didn't say it was a decision, just the message perceived. If you live outside the US, hearing stories or reading what happens to others is enough to know these things happen, anyway.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by wang_li on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:21PM (#19565829)
Reading a story like this, which is based entirely upon the information provided by Gal, and drawing any widespread conclusion about travel into the US is utterly irrational. From this story there is zero ability to determine if it really happened, or assuming it happened, you have no idea what the actual interactions were like between Gal and CBP agents.

Some of the facts presented don't even make sense. You don't take the fifth when refusing a search. You're relying on the fourth amendment and refusing to consent to a search. Searches like this having nothing to do with self incrimination.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by cmrdporcupine on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:01PM (#19565015)
No, honestly, the rest of the world has been getting this message from the US since 9/11.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by a012 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @10:49AM (#19563778)
Or simply just leave yours at home, buy a burner phone on arrival.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alex_hitchins on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:27AM (#19564114)
I'd rather save my money and just not visit. I don't see anything that could out balance all the negatives. Many millions of Americans are lovely people who I'd donate a kidney to. I'd just not want to put myself through all that for so little gain.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by okatsu on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:02PM (#19564479)
I used to say that until I started doing sports competitions and had to travel there repeatedly. I was admittedly worried because of my ethnicity but it went fine (a Canadian passport and NEXUS membership might've helped...you also wouldn't find much on my phone other than sports memes, as much as I care about my privacy).

Similarly in the game development community, lots of people complain about customs but then go to GDC every year.

I guess my point is that as long as America continues being a pillar of the world, people (like myself!) will continue putting their principles aside and comply, and the system will have no reason to change.

I hope you'll last longer than I did. :)

Edit for clarifications.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mikepurvis on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:14AM (#19564004)
There's a cost to doing that. I guess it depends just how badly you need to travel to the US, but as a Canadian citizen, I see no reason to endanger myself or my family by traveling there at the current time. Walt Disney World will still be there in 2021.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by philsnow on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:40PM (#19565374)
> Walt Disney World will still be there in 2021

Border policy won't change by 2021 either, at least not for the better.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by zanny on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:46PM (#19567519)
Hey we could still see a sea change at the US federal level of either progressive or adherent libertarian representatives that curtail the fear / police / surveillance state in the 2020 election.

Its about as likely as bitcoin taking over the world economy, but hey we all have to cling to false hope sometimes.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by lgregg on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:13PM (#19565735)
> Walt Disney World will still be there in 2021.

I think you'll have to wait awhile. These policy tools have been under both parties starting with GWB far as the initial PATRIOT Act (I think?). Right now, we're at a point where the USA might, but unlikely, go back to an isolationist policy far as borders.

At a meta level, this is a debate around internationalism vs globalism. Currently, Earth is in an era of internationalism. There is a desire by lots of people to move towards Globalism.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by veryworried on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:10PM (#19565701)
Even if a Democratic regime takes over in 2021 I promise you it will be no different. One of the largest expanses of the surveillance state was a consequence of the previous President, and there is no reason to believe that won’t continue into the foreseeable future.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by everdrive on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:45AM (#19564309)
The other thing to consider is that a burner phone will look quite suspicious.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by tzs on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:44PM (#19564857)
Say that you take a burner when traveling abroad because you don't trust foreign governments to accord you the same civil rights protections against unreasonable searches that the United States does.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by jeltz on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:36PM (#19564795)
They are just cheap smartphones these days. Do they really profile people because their smartphones look too cheap?
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by max76 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:22PM (#19565837)
Sometimes? If I see a person in their 20s or 30s that have other status items (expensive clothes/accessories) but a $50 smartphone I assume something isn't quite right.
[dead]
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by ihattendorf on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:08PM (#19564522)
> You get 1000x better treatment in Iran as a visitor for example.

Sure, as long as you aren't LGBTQ or a woman.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by orwin on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:30PM (#19564735)
People in Charleston WV are super nice (but we were caucasian so it might have helped). They might be _sightly_ surprised that someone from another country chose their place as a vacation/tourist spot however (despite amazing rivers).
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by monetus on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:15PM (#19564617)
Hold fast for now, and watch for when the trends of our enforcement change.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by DigiMortal on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:02AM (#19563885)
America is awesome, I appreciate and know how lucky we are to be here.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alex_hitchins on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:30AM (#19564144)
I appreciate the fact I'm British, but not out of any patriotism. I certainly don't think my country is awesome. Considering life is a lottery, all things considered I've been incredibly lucky to be born in a 'developed' wealthy nation.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by saiya-jin on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:09AM (#19563960)
> America is awesome, I appreciate and know how lucky we are to be here.

In which regard? Compared to which place?

[dead]
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by alex_hitchins on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:36AM (#19564206)
I think you left the /s from that post. I don't believe you can seriously believe such statements.
[dead]
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by cyphar on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:10PM (#19565097)
> Or that China _is_ a surveillance state

It is, as is the US. Or most other developed nations, if we're going to be honest with ourselves.

> Does the U.S. not hold the most patents?

The US patent system has a very large number of patents (maybe the largest number in the world), but how many are held by US citizens and companies? Foreign entities are allowed to register US patents (and many do) in order to be able to sue US entities.

In fact, this effect is significant enough that the Australian Government's Law Reform Commission noted in a 1990 report[1] that the existence of a patent system may actually have a net negative effect to the economy because of this effect.

[1]: https://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/2-patent-system/economi...

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by wang_li on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:35PM (#19565959)
Ignoring the silly stuff the parent poster wrote, the facts available indicate that by millions of people's analysis the US is the best country on Earth. The US naturalizes a million immigrants every year and has done so for the last thirty years. There are more than forty million non-citizens living in the US. No other country has that number of immigrants. Plus there is no country to which more Americans emigrate than from which people immigrate to the US.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mav3rick on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:35AM (#19564195)
We can't afford healthcare for our people.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mastox on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:38PM (#19565358)
I don't have any knowledge one way or another, but is this true? I guess it seems like we can afford healthcare just fine, but allocating money to healthcare/education/etc is a different problem.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mav3rick on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:45PM (#19565429)
We can but we don't want to. It's even worse.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mastox on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:05PM (#19565639)
> It's even worse.

Agreed. I personally view Daylight Savings as being horrid for mental health reasons, and I have plenty of friends and family that feel the same. There is no hope for any of us to change that. So from my view point, if we can't discuss an issue as simple as Daylight Savings, then there's little hope for bigger issues.

Also, from a "peasants" view, we want to change, but getting that translated to actual change through the system seems impossible. It doesn't help there are legitimate differences on what solutions even looks like.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by jonathanstrange on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:42AM (#19564280)
Okay. But you have shitty border controls, I've heard.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by 0_gravitas on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:17PM (#19564626)
What an embarrassment.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by geofft on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:43AM (#19564292)
> We develop the best military technology

Then why didn't you win in Vietnam?

> We issue the most patents, by far.

The US decides what is patentable, so that's basically a participation trophy.

> We (as people) have more rights than most all other nations

How have you enumerated this?

> We protect Europe and the West.

By handing half of Germany over to Stalin?

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mav3rick on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:07PM (#19564520)
Winning wars is also about strategy not just technology.

Also, Russia was an ally in WW2, it demanded reparations.

These two are unrelated and historical facts.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by geofft on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:11PM (#19564552)
Good points. Military technology isn't that important, therefore the US continues to be the best country because it has the best military technology. Also, it's okay that the US didn't defend Europe from Communism because it was allied with the Communists.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by xeeeeeeeeeeenu on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:36PM (#19564799)
So you are saying that USA should have started WW3 immediately after WW2?
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by geofft on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:18PM (#19565177)
Oh, I'm not taking issue with the US's behavior. I'm just taking issue with people who use it to argue that the US is the bestest country evar. If it really were, it would have been able to defeat the USSR soundly with its superior military technology.

It's perfectly fine to admit the US is a mediocre large country, absolutely worth living in, but not some singular shining glory. It's perfectly fine to admit the US is bad at both picking and waging wars. That's my position.

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mav3rick on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:50PM (#19565484)
Also the US has never met Russia in an overt war. Not that I ever want them to either but your point is again invalid. There is a reason US pulls it's weight in diplomacy and military and currency are two big factors for this. Denying this is just you being delusional. Also US , barring the current govt., has always been very welcoming to immigrants. Every country has flaws but this country gave me and countless others an opportunity and a voice. That alone separates the US from many other countries.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by vkou on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:14PM (#19565756)
The United States (As well as other entente powers) invaded Russia, during the Russian Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Intervention

Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by mav3rick on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:43PM (#19565411)
Nowhere in my points did I say it's the best country. I just invalidated two arguments you used.
Re:Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airpo... by sergiotapia on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:59AM (#19564445)
He asked, on a US website, using US invested technology, on a US written application.

Please let's not kid ourselves, the US rocks!