Email me: matthewatcloudflaredotcom. Perhaps you and your cofounder can help build your vision within Cloudflare? I'd love to chat.

Seeing this raises my already high opinion of Cloudflare!

> I'd love to chat.

Wow. Sure, thanks.

First, thank you for the first implementation when the app was just 1.1.1.1 Ive been using it for a while.

Not sure if you can answer this question, but are the performance benefits still there in conjunction with utilizing the VPN google uses to encrypt traffic with google fi? This announcement mentions they have 2x the latency in comparison to WARP, but did not mention specifically which google VPN technology (not sure if they have multiple) but I assume something mobile related since this is a mobile application.

If I use the WARP app in conjunction with google fi, am I layering this VPN on top of the 2x latency of google fi, thus slowing down WARP VPN to gain then the other performance benefits of optimized network switching of google fi?

Neither project is open source (that I know of) so it is hard to understand how the implementations overlap or not with one another. I also am not an expert in VPNs so maybe this is not a good question, but I find myself reading Cloudflare's blogs alot and couldn't help but ask.

I’m not sure, and I think you’re kind of off-topic for this particular sub-thread, but we’ll have a ton of performance data across a matrix of device, software, and network operators. And, when we do, we’ll definitely publish it.

Very cool response!

My biggest concern with any VPN is: do I trust you? I’ve been reluctant to sign up with any of these VPN services that seem to be advertising everywhere nowadays because I don’t know what they’ll do with my internet traffic.

The CloudFlare VPN is interesting to me because they’re a large, established company with a good reputation, so I trust them more than TunnelBear or ExpressVPN or PIA or whoever’s sponsoring YouTube this week.

If there was a way you could offer a product or service that provided a compelling case for why you won’t (or better yet can’t) snoop on my internet traffic, I’m all ears. Everything else is just gravy on top.

One positive for PIA at least is that their "no logs"-policy actually has been proven multiple times by subpoenas. https://torrentfreak.com/vpn-providers-no-logging-claims-tes...

I'm not aware of any subpoenas directed at Cloudflare that was equally as useless.

So far that only applied to the DNS, I don't think many would subpoena a DNS provider.

We thought about the trust aspect of it (we have gone through numerous VPN related threads here on news.yc and r/privacy and this has been one of the top concerns). Here's how we plan to convince folks (in our own naive way) we mean business (do serveral or all among):

1. OpenSource vpn server and client, with ability to Cloud-SSH to the server and view what's running.

2. Hands-off, one-click, spin up VPN servers on a VPS of your choice under your control, Streistand/Algo style [0][1], but find a way to provide support (think AWS marketplace).

3. Make privacy-centric commitment legally binding as part of EULA/ToS (is this sufficient?).

4. Run client-side only VPN (like intra, blockada, netguard). The idea is you're still able to analyse traffic and add blacklists client-side, without having to pay for or run a VPN server.

Thoughts?

[0] https://github.com/StreisandEffect/streisand

[1] https://github.com/trailofbits/algo

Sounds a bit like what Google / Alphabet / Jigsaw are already doing with Outline, but I still think there’s major opportunity there for a transparent and decentralized one-click service. Especially when you add in #4.

For some reason, Outline is still mega-targeted at journalists and activists when it could be so much more — it’s been an absolute joy to use so far, and being powered by Shadowsocks certainly doesn’t hurt.

https://getoutline.org/en/home

Thanks. Yes, you're right. Not just Jigsaw (who are excellent, and I've been recommending their DNS app, intra, on news.yc for as long as I can remember), there are multiple other companies in this space (SecureMix, TheGuardianApp, KeepSafe, CopperheadOS, Proton mail/VPN, AdGuard), but not everyone is quite doing what I have in mind related to fighting trackers and censorship with a focus on 'one click and you're done' kind of simplicity (?)

I hope to get something ready to show you guys here on news.yc in may be 3 to 6 months from now.

Sounds like something HN readers will like, but which also would be completely commercially unviable.

True. That's the part where we might need to think hard: A business plan. We haven't thought that far yet, tbh.

Our intention is to: Put the control of the mobile device back in the hands of the consumer and empower them with simple but powerful tools. Think keybase, Stripe, or pre-2014 WhatsApp in terms of UX.

Mobile VPN is key part of that vision, including building other apps around it.

A lot of things triggered this:

1. The prism/carrier-iq snafu from 7yrs back.

2. The uptick in government censorship prevelant in multiple nations (India, Turkey, Pakistan, Russia, etc).

3. Rise of app-economy and the relentless tracking behaviour that entails, esp from Facebook.

4. pi-hole and it's elegant solution to shut out trackers. Though I first saw this solution impl by Sam Hocevar (one of the VLC devs) in 2002 (?): http://sam.zoy.org/writings/internet/doubleclick.html

5. Not very many firms developing products like DuoSecurity did but for the end-consumer. There's a few I could find, like SecureMix (glasswire developer), Objective-See (LuLu Firewall), Jigsaw (primarily for journalists?), Purism, and KeepSafe.

Filtering, Adblocking, VPNs are commercially viable. More of a B2B play than B2C though

Another way would be using some trusted computing technology [1] to do that. This would be a good use case for some kind of remote attestation. (Shameless pug: I did my Ph.D. thesis on this, so if you want to discuss this point, cloudflareatvernizzisdotit ;-) )

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

The IPv6,IPSec and PKI together may be interesting to authenticate and encrypt traffic without any entity managing the traffic.

It could eliminate the client/server by activating the authentication and encryption with exchange of certificates by using a PKI.

It may provides a full p2p encryption in the network layer without logging your traffic somewhere or third parties. open-sourced would be awesome.

> established company with a good reputation

are you insane?

CF's reputation is terrible[1]. They are trying to MiTM the entire internet, and frustrate attempts to access some of the most important information online( including but ont limited to evidence of the holocaust, sexual health information and climate change ). They are practically a threat to humanity itself at this point - you shouldn't trust them worth anything.

[1] https://notabug.org/themusicgod1/cloudflare-tor/

The cynicism is fair and I can see where it comes from, but cloudflare CTO, jgrahamc, has replied elsewhere in this thread [0] why tor is a difficult scenario for cloudflare to handle. They did promise to make life easier for tor users but the abuse over tor is apparently relentless, according to them.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19543188

> Having analysed the market, I find that its defragmented with no clear run-away winner.

THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE!

That's how all of this should be.

But it shows that it's either so easy that there's no barrier to entry (I doubt it) or that no one can deliver a really convincing product.

Yep, agree. Though, I thought it was an important factor for us when we are bootstrapping to consider if we are heading straight into a monopoly that we can't defeat.

I'd look at dominating the standards used in the market rather than the market itself.

Have you already started on this concept? Myself and our team are working on some of the ideas you listed for an upcoming app (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/guardian-firewall/id13637963...). It would be great to chat further, if you have interest in working on this concept (e-mail is [email protected]).

Designing a reasonably secure and reliable mobile VPN has been a very difficult challenge to get right. If you look at existing mobile VPNs through a tool such as Charles Proxy or Burp, you will see that none of them really appear to be designed very well. There are many unsolved technical problems with managing and scaling such services, likely avoided by existing providers due to how easy the issues are to mask. That said, Cloudflare’s cautious approach with Warp gives me some confidenxe that they really are trying to do this right.

Nice. GuardianApp is very close to what I had in mind. Great landing page, btw!

> Have you already started on this concept?

Initial stages where we have looked at OSS projects to fork for a quick prototype, with our focus being exclusively on Android, and not just limited to VPN.

> Designing a reasonably secure and reliable mobile VPN has been a very difficult challenge to get right.

Thanks for the heads-up. From usability point-of-view, I've seen my share of VPNs mess up and sink hole all traffic. On one ocassion, an app simply refused to get past its loading-screen unless I turned off VPN.

> It would be great to chat further, if you have interest in working on this concept.

Sure, thanks. I'd be sure to email you, Will.

I don't think what we're offering instantly takes over the entire VPN market. VPNs mean different things to different people and I'd imagine you can find a valuable market that provides things that we don't.

I find amusing that ‘defragmented with no clear winner’ is what I want in most cases as a customer and what most startups see as an ‘opportunity for disruption’ (read “opportunity to dominate the market”).

Please still build this product!

Indeed. A little healthy competition leads to better products all around.

> 4. Provide ability to analyze traffic on a PC.

This would be such a great feature. I hope someone makes such a VPN.