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Re:Listening to Ketamine by freedomben on Saturday March 30, 2019 @08:56PM (#19532983)
> Recent approval of a nasal spray promises to expand access, but much remains unknown about long-term use and the potential for abuse.

This might surprise everybody, but if it's possible to "abuse" it, somebody will (turns out some humans will do that). I wish we'd stop restricting access to things that could help and improve people's lives because we're worried that somebody might do something with their body that we find morally objectionable.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by fucking_tragedy on Saturday March 30, 2019 @09:07PM (#19533046)
If you're human, you are susceptible to addiction. The prudence prescribers have towards handing out addictive substances might save you from being the person who abuses their medicine.

Much like any other potential side-effect, addiction is a risk that must be heavily weighed and mitigated against. Addiction causes harm, and even death. It isn't a question of personal morals, it's a question of ethics.

This is the same country that has experienced a decade-long opioid epidemic because addiction risks of prescription drugs were intentionally covered up, and in many cases, the drugs themselves were overprescribed.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by slfnflctd on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:58PM (#19533737)
It was a wicked whipsaw. Hordes of new opiate addicts were created, with more addictive compounds than ever before, at unprecedented levels of availability-- and then their access was yanked away, with seemingly little thought to how addicts would react. Curiously, Fentanyl showed up on the black market in huge amounts around this time... and then users from all walks of life started dropping like flies.

Narcan is saving a lot of lives (although it does little or nothing for addiction itself), and kratom looks like a potentially promising way to help addicts stop/reduce their use of harder stuff (if misguided crusaders don't go and ban that everywhere), but everything's a tradeoff and nuance is important. We've got a ton to work on in this area for a long time.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by FireBeyond on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:28AM (#19534215)
> Narcan is saving a lot of lives (although it does little or nothing for addiction itself)

Nothing whatsoever, and from a bigger picture hurts.

"Ideal" treatment for opiate overdose? Manage respiratory depression/arrest, slowly titrate IM (not nasal) Narcan to keep level of consciousness lower, get to hospital, offer patient treatment options/longer term help.

Blast IN naloxone into someone and they'll almost always AMA (against medical advice) on scene.

-- paramedic

Re:Listening to Ketamine by tcj_phx on Sunday March 31, 2019 @09:41AM (#19535527)
My girlfriend’s involuntary treatment providers decided to give her a benzodiazepine addiction, on top of the other non-helpful prescriptions they thought she needed. Initially the benzos helped her “anxiety”, but the effect wore off after a month. She ordered heroin from her street pharmacist to get through benzo withdrawal.

I said... “we’re not going to do this again.” She said it was barely any heroin at all, that she wasn’t going to get addicted again, and that she just needed it so she could sleep. Just to show me that it wasn’t much she prepared a second shot and injected that too. I don’t think she realized that her tolerance had changed and that benzodiazepines increase the potency of opiates.

Then she fell forward, said “I meant to do that”, then her face turned blue and she went non-responsive. I called EMS. They revived her with 2x2mg naloxone.

After a few minutes the firefighters decided she was okay. The police officers also decided they didn’t need to intervene. She did very well for about 2 weeks: drinking under control, benzodiazepine withdrawal mostly completed, etc.

Narcan/naloxone has much broader effects than just kicking out the opiates from the opioid receptors. The related drug Naltrexone is FDA-approved to help people get their alcohol use under control. I’m not entirely clear on how the anti-opiates help with alcohol use, but I think it has to do with fixing the metabolic problem that is associated with most cases of alcoholism.

You’re correct that narcan isn’t much of a treatment by itself. But naltrexone is almost the same drug, keeps people sober long enough to get them stabilized, and partially addresses the long-term emotional pain they’re actually self-medicating for.

If addicts are helped out of their “cage”, narcan/naloxone and naltrexone are very useful tools to support them while they recover.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by FireBeyond on Monday April 01, 2019 @01:21PM (#19545681)
Oh, absolutely. That's definitely a challenging situation, and naltrexone is something to be considered in the longer term help, like you say. It's just not something we administer in EMS, largely for the same reasons, "treat the life threats", in her case respiratory depression/arrest.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by mirimir on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:10PM (#19533541)
> Addiction causes harm, and even death.

That's mostly because the drug they're addicted to can't readily be purchased. So they're stuck buying stuff illegally. Stuff that's expensive. And with unknown potency. Or even, for that matter, identity.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by DanBC on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:21AM (#19534475)
People with an addiction to legally prescribed opioids are caused harm by that addiction even if they never move to illegal opioids.

This is because they're taking very large quantities of opioids and suffering the side effects, and they've developed a tolerance so they need larger more risky doses, and because it's probably not treating the problem they started taking opioids for.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by mirimir on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:49AM (#19535113)
Maybe sometimes. But the major side effect of opioids is constipation. Unless they're idiots, and overdose for recreation. You don't see respiratory collapse in well-managed opioid patients. It's typically caused by prescriber error.

And yes, by idiot thrill seekers, and people carelessly combining their opioids with other drugs (e.g., zolpidem) or alcohol. But that's a minor issue, in the context of the pain relief that they get.

I do admit, though, that US doctors have tended in recent years to over-prescribe. Partly because it's faster and less hassle to prescribe opioids than physical therapy. And because physical therapy tends to cost more for patients and insurance companies. And also because the compliance rate for physical therapy tends to be low. People are busy, and want quick results.

But still, focusing on addiction as the main problem is, in my opinion, misguided. It's better to focus on people being well, and able to enjoy their lives. And if, for whatever reason, that means taking opioids until they die, that's just how it is.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by FireBeyond on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:24AM (#19534207)
We have 4% of the world's population and 81% of its opiate use.

In 2019, you are more likely to die in the US of an opiate overdose than you are to die in a car accident. That staggers me.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by XaoDaoCaoCao on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:15AM (#19534466)
We also like to give our population crap food and then whistle away the tsunami of diabetics and of the obese as those conditions drain TRILLIONS of potential wealth.

A diet of pure fat would literally be healthier than the diets of a majority of Americans. At least satiety is activated much sooner.

If we examined it, we'd probably find a number of preventable deaths per year far exceeding that from any drug use. Hell, the side effects of our dietary metabolic wreckage probably impel the search for comfort/escape in intoxicated states.

Of course simultaneously we're dealing with a breakdown of a post WWII script, in mainstream American society, where the dream is available if you work hard and your purchasing power will only get better as society "progresses". But for the average Joe, the price of everyday consumables (Food, gas, water) and shelter has outpaced inflation. At least electronic soma is cheaper!

For me, it's hard to extract our drug problem from the pervasive shitstorm of other factors.

PS: MXE was/is the shit. It's a damn shame such a relatively mild dissociative with a promising profile will probably never be allowed for public use until the current generation of puritan drug cop-regulators die off.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by navjack27 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @06:02AM (#19534739)
+1 for MXE. Loved that shit
Re:Listening to Ketamine by mirimir on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:05PM (#19533524)
American society remains amazingly Puritan. Many are appalled by the idea that someone, somewhere, might be enjoying something.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by outside1234 on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:37PM (#19533655)
It’s not about enjoyment - it’s a worry this is the next opioid that wrecks lives and we all have to end up paying for
Re:Listening to Ketamine by mnm1 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @03:41AM (#19534389)
Opiates didn't really wreck many lives till they were made illegal. They didn't cause crime, they don't cause bodily harm, and most people used them and had normal lives. If we legalized them now we could stop wrecking lives immediately. So this worry is unfounded, uninformed, stupid, and dangerous. It is the real cause of the suffering and really, isn't much different than what the parent comment says. Not that addiction is ever fun. But try telling that to the idiot offspring of puritans.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by freedomben on Sunday March 31, 2019 @08:31PM (#19539431)
Yes. It's ironic in fact that many of the American founders were prolific users of opium and laudanum. Yet, the somehow lived to accomplish some stuff...

Even more ironic, the very country they founded would now imprison them and label them junkies.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by mirimir on Sunday March 31, 2019 @08:50PM (#19539516)
Well, you've seen what Washington had for teeth, right? Carved wood. They're on display at Mt. Vernon, as I recall.

But yeah. The state has become a monster.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by mnm1 on Monday April 01, 2019 @08:12PM (#19549725)
What do Washington's teeth have to do with opiates? There's no connection. Everyone had shitty teeth back then.

The state has indeed become a monster.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by atomical on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:57PM (#19533736)
Except ketamine has already been proven safe with low addiction potential.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by justatdotin on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:05AM (#19533762)
> low addiction potential

nah, K is terribly moreish.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by repomies68 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:37AM (#19533899)
I've experimented with ketamine a couple of times and can confirm. Very addictive.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:37AM (#19534091)
They'll tell you that Heroin and nicotine are addictive.

But! If you use either of those two for no more than two days in a row every ~2 weeks, and no more, you'll never get addicted.

Probably true with ketamine. I've used it a few times, but never abused it. Occasional recreational use is possible.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by beenBoutIT on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:19AM (#19534192)
It turns out that if overused the stuff wreaks havoc on the bladder. Britain has a shitload of bladderless people who enjoyed K too frequently.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by mathieuh on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:44AM (#19534256)
Where 'overused' means snorting like 12g a day, every day.

I can't be bothered finding a source for this as I'm on my phone but I'm fairly sure it's somewhere in my comment history from the last time this came up

You would need to be dedicating your life to obtaining and consuming ketamine, at which point you already have serious problems

Re:Listening to Ketamine by beenBoutIT on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:15PM (#19538075)
You make a very good point. The bladder dysfunction might have been the only thing capable of pulling these sad people out of an otherwise endless loop of k-holes.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by DanBC on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:17AM (#19534470)
This is untrue for heroin.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday March 31, 2019 @06:55AM (#19534905)
Is it? My personal experience supports my claim, although maybe my use of never is overreach.

I’ve also never really drank much alcohol, I don’t smoke, and don’t regularly use caffeine (coffee / tea).

I’m willing to believe my drug use patterns make me an outlier.

A quick search suggests something like 25% of people who try Heroin will become addicted. That is quite a frightening statistic!

Re:Listening to Ketamine by 0xdeadb00f on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:21AM (#19534999)
> Is it? My personal experience supports my claim, although maybe my use of never is overreach.

The thing with drugs is that it's always different for everybody. Your circumstances, physical (anatomically speaking) and psychological have an impact on the experience of a drug and the potential for abuse.

My point being: your experience will almost always differ from someone else's.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:35AM (#19535061)
I did attempt to cover that when I wrote:

I’m willing to believe my drug use patterns make me an outlier.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by hsbaut76 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:25AM (#19533860)
I think we are talking about physical addiction ;)
Re:Listening to Ketamine by oceanghost on Saturday March 30, 2019 @08:59PM (#19533004)
Ketamine is very addictive, and long term abuse at the very least leads to bladder problems.

Source: I spend two years doing Ketamine and analogs on a regular basis.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by empath75 on Saturday March 30, 2019 @09:43PM (#19533186)
As someone who spent quite a few years in the rave scene hanging out with a lot of drug users and trying a lot of drugs, I’d probably put ketamine way down on the list if I’m ranking them on addictiveness. I’d say most people that tried it didn’t even like it. It’s a particular kind of personality that would take a dissociative anesthetic recreationally. I tried it a couple of times and never really enjoyed it much unless I was mixing it with mdma — at best I’d call it ‘an interesting experience’

Which isn’t to say that I didn’t know people who abused it way beyond “normal” recreational use, but those people were abusing every drug they could find.

Re:Listening to Ketamine by homakov on Saturday March 30, 2019 @10:12PM (#19533315)
Swim is genuinely loving K yet finds pop drugs like cocaine or mdma boring and experiences nowhere as inspiring. Dissaciative state can be scary at first, but can be learnt to control.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by caymanjim on Sunday March 31, 2019 @03:31AM (#19534358)
"SWIM" is an absurd term with precisely zero legal or other benefit. Stop using it. It demeans any statement it's connected with.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by homakov on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:50AM (#19534552)
I agree, I've seen it on a couple of forums and just go with it. I don't know if this is out of fashion sorry!
Re:Listening to Ketamine by empath75 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @11:58AM (#19536249)
Most people don’t want to use drugs that are scary. That’s why I said it takes a particular kind of personality.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by easymodex on Sunday March 31, 2019 @03:02AM (#19534294)
Interesting, for swim mdma is the best party drug hands down. For tripping with friends swim usually chooses shrooms. Hasn't tried K, but will give it a shot when opportunity comes.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by homakov on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:52AM (#19534556)
Just trying to say there are people who prefer K to many other popular drugs. Not for everyone though.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by robbiep on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:33PM (#19533637)
Doses required for ketogenic bladder are in the order of >1g/day for prolonged periods (months to years). These doses are fairly incompatible with a regular productive life and are of little concern to the regular or occasional recreational user
Re:Listening to Ketamine by oceanghost on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:31PM (#19538164)
Tolerance my friend. Tolerance.
Re:Listening to Ketamine by grzm on Saturday March 30, 2019 @09:06PM (#19533042)
Were you using recreationally or as prescribed under the supervision of a doctor?
Re:Listening to Ketamine by oceanghost on Saturday March 30, 2019 @10:06PM (#19533279)
Oh, if it wasn't clear, I was addicted to it :)