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Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by maxxxxx on Friday March 29, 2019 @10:59AM (#19522259)
After a lot of bad news about the F35 it seems the PR effort has started to make it look better. Lots of positive articles about it all of a sudden.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by jjoonathan on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:22AM (#19522447)
This has happened to me a few times before following a single boredom-induced chumbox click.

Advanced military toys are always good for nerd sniping, recommender algorithms know this, and they will eagerly amplify a small amount of demonstrated interest into a deluge of recommendations. I'm pretty sure that's what's happening here.

So yes, it's certainly a bought and paid for PR effort, but I wouldn't conclude that it's localized in time, just that HN recently wandered into it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll take my leave to go read about the fabulous toys my tax dollars are paying for.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by peteretep on Saturday March 30, 2019 @03:51AM (#19528362)
> Advanced military toys are always good for nerd sniping

That and active measures. Eroding public support for your enemy's shiny new military hardware is a cheap way to destroy morale and increase the chances it'll get cancelled.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by codeisawesome on Saturday March 30, 2019 @12:04AM (#19527664)
Your comment made me feel like HN needs a “give gold” system. Proceeds could go to funding startups =)
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by eatonphil on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:19AM (#19522412)
My impression is that there are two things at play:

1) Once you've noticed something, you tend to notice it more often.

2) Novel (or uncommon) articles on HN that get to the front page tend to attract other articles on the same topic. I can imagine this along the lines of:

Human 1: Hey apparently there's an audience on HN for topic X that I enjoy! I wonder if HN is also interested in this related article on topic X.

Or Human 2: Hey here's this interesting related article I discovered while looking at front-page article Y on topic X.

The summary of all of this is to say that my guess is that like attracts like and uncommon topics die down fairly quickly in time. I imagine that it is less of a concerted effort by stakeholders to push and direct topic X than just the effects of a curious and diverse group.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by locklock on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:24AM (#19522455)
On the other hand, this is the second positive article on this plane to hit the top of hacker news in 3 days [1]. A trillion dollar plane that is notorious for costing way too much probably has a pretty decent marketing budget behind it, and it's not very difficult to assume that these articles are part of that somehow.

For an article that came out before this recent press rollout began, try this one: "The F-35 Is a $1.4T National Disaster"

article: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-f-35-14-trill...

HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16869679

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19506763

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by zoomablemind on Friday March 29, 2019 @05:30PM (#19525845)
Or another one not so long ago about still ongoing troubles with F-35C carrier version [1]. I stumbled upon that while following up to reading of the recent F-35 post on HN. Fascinating craft, nevertheless.

While at it also found some stories about F-35 helmet targeting systems, if it's anything like BAE Striker II for Eurofighter [3]

1. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/navys-version-f-35-ha...

2. https://militarymachine.com/f-35-helmet

3. http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/future-tech/inside-baes-stri...

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by josefresco on Friday March 29, 2019 @04:16PM (#19525223)
I find, anecdotally, that topics or subject trends come in waves of 2 or 3. Something will make front page of HN, and then a few days later someone else will capitalize on a proven "market of interest" and submit another article that also makes it's way up.

Could also be a paid PR campaign if you're the cynical type. 50/50

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by usrusr on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:17PM (#19526146)
“Capitalizing on a proven market“, or maybe just simple, old-fashioned web "surfing". Following the links deeper and deeper into a topic originally found on hn. Hundreds venture off into the rabbit holes, a tiny fraction feel they found something worth sharing back to hn.

Most likely a bit of both, you are not alone in noticing the pattern.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by drstewart on Friday March 29, 2019 @01:41PM (#19523859)
>"The F-35 Is a $1.4T National Disaster"

A trillion dollar plane that's cutting edge probably has a pretty decent opposition market budget behind it from adversarial nations, and it's not very difficult to assume that these articles are part of that somehow.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by rhizome on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:19PM (#19527476)
no, it really is that ridiculous.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by duxup on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:26AM (#19522476)
I think that is all pretty likely.

One addition you have a lot of readers hitting one story, google or someone notices and ... someone(s) is going to be exposed to that topic more even if only because Google decides to push it on some of those folks.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by partiallypro on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:41AM (#19522608)
I always found the F-35 "bad" news to be agenda driven, possibly by a foreign actor. The people I know in the Air Force are fans of the F-35, but the media never has been. I think there are certainly cost overruns, etc that deserve coverage...but I am always struck by the negative opinion even the most common person has of the fighter just from headlines, that in some cases are misleading. I just can't shake the feeling that some of it is manufactured. I could be wrong, but it has certainly felt that way to me. So, it wouldn't surprise me if the DoD is doing a bit of a PR push to restore public faith in the project.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by ken on Friday March 29, 2019 @01:44PM (#19523890)
It's $100,000,000 per aircraft, and US military spending is bigger than the next 7 countries combined. The news stories I've read about America in the past year are about how our water pipes are still full of lead, people are dying of gun violence, and government workers who live paycheck-to-paycheck got hurt by the shutdown.

I don't need a foreign actor to explain why people in America today are unsympathetic to a new technologically advanced fighter jet. Even the foreign threats of today aren't the type where air superiority would help at all.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by sgc on Friday March 29, 2019 @05:02PM (#19525649)
Air superiority is the defining aspect of modern war. Whoever owns the skies wins. Whatever one's opinion on the FXX planes, the goal of maintaining air superiority into the future is completely obvious and necessary.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by WJW on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:17PM (#19526147)
Well, only if you can keep fighting a defined enemy who is at all vulnerable to a traditional conflict. An enemy who is globally distributed and just targets vulnerable energy and water infrastructure over the internet is much less targetable with air power.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by bordercases on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:47PM (#19526294)
But if you don't keep up at least a modicum of pretense for building air superiority, you will have two problems.

In the case of domestic extremism the theatre gets pushed to surveillance + communication monitoring.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by manigandham on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:42PM (#19539234)
Why? The enemy still exists physically and can be attacked like any other target. Being distributed is precisely the reason why we need a strong Air Force with global air superiority so the enemy can't hide.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by jayd16 on Friday March 29, 2019 @08:49PM (#19526835)
This is like complaining about an expensive meal and then someone starts to bring up how necessary food is.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by sgc on Friday March 29, 2019 @09:53PM (#19527111)
It's more like complaining about an expensive meal like it was a crazy idea to begin with, and someone points out that expensive meals can be necessary. Air superiority will obviously be one of the most expensive elements to maintain in a modern military. whether the meal should be 200 or 500, whether the restaurant could have been a much better value, it's going to be more than most any other food you buy and the problem was not in deciding to eat at an expensive restaurant, but in more specific choices of which restaurant, what you ordered off the menu, etc.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by hestefisk on Friday March 29, 2019 @09:44PM (#19527071)
Imagine how many people you could feed for $350B. Or how much we cancer and HIV research we could fund. Denmark bought a set of these monsters and I still have no idea why we need them. Competition (SAAB Gripen, F18) was 1/3 of the price, purchase as well as ongoing opex.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by partiallypro on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:34PM (#19556613)
That's not how budgets work. You don't automatically get to spend $350B because of a budget shift. You also have to consider the diminishing returns of things like disease fighting, crime fighting, and the incentive to fraudulently justify your research/actions.

The F-35 is designed to be more expensive but cheaper to maintain. Fleet maintenance, especially in the US eats up a massive, massive chunk of the budget. So while the F/A 18 might be 1/3rd the price, once you count in maintenance, it might not be much cheaper...and it's last generation. There is a complex math behind it. There is absolutely waste, fraud and abuse in the military...but it's probably not as much as you think since the majority of military spending in the US is actually on pensions, healthcare, housing, salaries and maintenance of aging equipment. Things that in other countries are much cheaper or just not given to soldiers. Comparing the US to China and Russian (at least their public spending numbers) is so misleading. New research and projects is a drop in the bucket.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by kej on Saturday March 30, 2019 @05:36AM (#19528603)
Your comment reminds me of one of the greatest speeches of the 20th century:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

This world in arms in not spending money alone.

It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.

It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population.

It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.

It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.

We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat.

We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.

This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.

This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."

Address by President Dwight D. Eisenhower "The Chance for Peace" delivered before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16,1953.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9743.htm

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by manigandham on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:44PM (#19539245)
The world isn't peaceful. The last 50 years has seen unprecedented peace and people today forget just how fragile that is.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by InclinedPlane on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:01PM (#19526032)
It's a super expensive jet that was touted to be a good idea because cramming three roles into "one design" would lead to efficiencies and cost reductions. Instead the end result is that there's barely 30% commonality between the 3 versions while also being hugely expensive and underperforming. Meanwhile, remember that the F-22 program was effectively cut short and cancelled because it was too expensive, at around $150 million per jet.

If they had any sense they would have cancelled the F-35 program long ago and rerun a set of competition trials for each of the three separate roles.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by briandear on Friday March 29, 2019 @07:03PM (#19526370)
A 737 Max costs over $120,000,000 and that’s essentially a flying bus. The F-35 is the most advanced fighter in the air.

Gun violence has little connection to budget. That’s a straw man. Dangerous water is a failure of local governments (such as Flint;) the vast majority of American water is perfectly fine. As far as government workers being “paycheck to paycheck” — that’s a problem with financial literacy. Government jobs generally have great benefits and aren’t minimum wage. Americans need more Dave Ramsey and not necessarily more Bernie Sanders.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by basementcat on Friday March 29, 2019 @08:39PM (#19526805)
s/DaveRamsey/ClarkHoward/
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by rocqua on Friday March 29, 2019 @06:19PM (#19526152)
I recall reading the army wasn't a fan of the F-35 replacing A10s because of the reduced loiter time.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by Kadin on Friday March 29, 2019 @08:12PM (#19526684)
The Army wasn't a fan of replacing the A-10 with the F-35 because they're totally different aircraft and it made no damn sense at all.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by zaphirplane on Friday March 29, 2019 @04:24PM (#19525307)
Search things like “operational testing and evaluation f35” and similar

Quiet the opposite. I would not be surprised if discrediting the f35 is a US physiological warfare

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by dsfyu404ed on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:14AM (#19522366)
Systems get better with refinement. The F35 is getting into the "mature technology" part of the progress curve now so it's naturally going to look better. It took a lot of money to get there but we're starting to see more positive results.

People are more likely to submit what they're reading if a similar post has already proven to be popular.

Overall JSF program aside, this is a fairly interesting and in depth (at least for this audience, this is probably just a high level overview to someone who works on electronic warfare technology) article on a particular subsystem so why wouldn't it be popular here?

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by shin_lao on Friday March 29, 2019 @04:17PM (#19525234)
The aircraft is likely to be very capable and since it embeds so much new technology delays and problems are not something surprising.

Most of the negative coverage is more around that such very expensive aircraft (and program) may not be that useful, for example, to fight terrorism or low-tech nations (and like another person mentioned in this thread, there may be more pressing matters in the US).

In the longer term however, it can be argued that maintaining that kind of advanced aerial capability may be paramount to keep balance vs countries like China.

And if you think the F-35 is too expensive, check out the F-22 which was purely air superiority!

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by DangitBobby on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:13AM (#19522361)
It's just as likely that there were negative opinions created for your impression, and way people actually feel is coming to light. Disinformation cuts both ways.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by thunderbird120 on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:21AM (#19522432)
It's actually been getting lots of good press for quite a while now if you follow defense news, mostly due to very good performance in wargames exercises and serious problems being resolved. That said, it's somewhat bizarre seeing a bunch of articles related to it on HN. This is really not the kind of community which usually follows that kind of thing closely. /r/CredibleDefense over on reddit is much more suited to discussions about this kind of thing.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by Kadin on Friday March 29, 2019 @08:09PM (#19526665)
Sorta makes sense -- it was subject to a lot of bad publicity for a long time, because all anybody knew of it was that it cost a lot, and didn't work well. That's kinda true of any product when it's in its final stage of development: there's a lot of money sunk into it at that point, and if you brought a user (or investor) in, they might question what the hell is going on if they don't have the right level of expectations set in advance (which by and large the public doesn't).

Now that the thing is actually flying, and we're starting to hear from pilots and people have gotten to see it at airshows, etc., naturally it's getting better press. This is the payoff, it's what the thing is designed to do. So it better damn well fly well and look good doing it.

There's still an open question and a debate to be had about whether the aircraft is WORTH the insane cost, and WHY the damn thing cost so much to begin with, though. I suspect it's like most things American at the moment -- we pay far too much, and get far too little for our money, compared to literally anyone else on the planet who might choose to build the same thing. (See also: healthcare, education, public transportation, physical infrastructure... we pay more and get less. Military equipment is no exception.)

But yeah, I'd expect to see better press now than when the thing was all but vaporware and a big bill.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by adventured on Friday March 29, 2019 @09:55PM (#19527125)
> There's still an open question and a debate to be had about whether the aircraft is WORTH the insane cost, and WHY the damn thing cost so much to begin with

There's no question about why it costs so much. The cost is including ~3,000 planes and covers up to 2070 in maintenance costs. That's a ridiculous number of planes to be maintained for decades. We'll never come close to building 3,000 however, the program will end long before that.

Russia's new Su-57 planes are at least $50 million each. Their GDP per capita is 1/6th that of the US. Imagine paying for that if you're them. Equivalent to $300 million in the US economy, except Russia is a very poor nation and can't rationally afford anything close to spending even $50m per plane.

Let's go with Russia's $50m number however. 3,000 planes at $50m = $150 billion just to get them built. Russia would probably spend another $600 billion maintaining those planes over four decades. The F35 unit cost is around $80 to $110 million depending on the version.

The US is getting a stellar deal in scope to its economy compared to what the Russians are spending on their latest planes.

The MiG-35 will cost at least double what the last MiG-29 variation did, or around $40 million. $240 million when adjusted to US per capita output figures.

For Russia it's even worse if we look at the absolute scale of their economy (from which the cost of those planes must come out of), a mere $1.6 trillion, or nearly 1/13th the size of the US economy. If you adjust the cost on that basis, it's like the US spending $650 million per F35. Nobody would think that's a deal. Russia isn't even remotely close to matching the US in adjusted terms on its new jet costs, their wild spending is on another planet entirely.

The Chengdu J-20 looks to cost $50 million per unit or more. That's in China, where they should be able to do everything radically cheaper than the US, and where they also have a GDP per capita 1/6th that of the US. $50 million is an astronomical sum for them to be spending per plane based on their economy. Or if we adjust based on the absolute size of their economy (the US economy is roughly 47-50% larger), it still pushes that unit cost up near the cheapest F35 variant.

The Eurofighter Typhoon, an older plane, costs as much per unit as the F35.

I'm not seeing any evidence that the F35 is expensive compared to other jets in the latest generation when you adjust for the US economic output level.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by Symmetry on Friday March 29, 2019 @03:16PM (#19524653)
Every new fighter the US has added since 1970 has followed the same pattern so it's not surprising. At least the F-35 hasn't killed a bunch of pilots like the F-14 did before they worked the kinks out.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by themodelplumber on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:28AM (#19522496)
The "positive" articles are at least talking about the F-35's attributes as they relate to its primary mission of SEAD. To me this is a recovery of some signal against all the previous noise, wherein we wondered if the F-35 was the all-around best fighter ever, and if not why not, etc.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by UweSchmidt on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:07AM (#19522330)
HN is a small, but not unimportant battlefield in the global information war.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by duxup on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:12AM (#19522352)
I was recently in western China and it's nothing like people say it is. It is very peaceful and I don't have to wear my backpack facing forward and worry about thieves like I do when I'm in Ameri ---- oops wrong story.

In all seriousness, this article is pretty interesting and kinda stands on its own.

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by ArtDev on Friday March 29, 2019 @05:15PM (#19525753)
You should also visit Tibet. There are roadblocks and military everywhere. It is bizarre.

Once I saw drunken Chinese soldiers spinning circles in the middle of a small town with a stolen tractor. Super weird scene. The locals were not happy about it.

I had the sense that mainland China IS pretty safe from petty theft because all the police. However, what is up with all the open prostitution when is it supposed to be illegal?

What were we talking about?

Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by nerdponx on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:01AM (#19522275)
From a purely technological perspective, it's always been pretty damn cool.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by Haga on Saturday March 30, 2019 @03:48AM (#19528352)
Time to write one about the enormous waste of funds for PR on this project.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by aurailious on Friday March 29, 2019 @11:40AM (#19522593)
It wouldn't surprise me if things changed and its actually good now.
Re:F-35's Towed Decoys by lvs on Saturday March 30, 2019 @02:36AM (#19528125)
And it's all from the same URL, showing up on successive days on HN.