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Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by blattimwind on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:22PM (#19504905)
> Paraphrasing Thiel, "what happened to the future? We were promised Blackbirds and got the F-35 instead."

It's kinda weird how the F-35 just looks somehow dated and like a slob compared to e.g. the older (and cooler looking) F-22. Though perhaps "cool looks" is maybe not the prime factor in fighter jet selection...

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by combatentropy on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:33PM (#19505015)
Kelly Johnson, who led the project to build the Blackbird, disagrees. "All of us had been trained by Kelly Johnson and believed fanatically in his insistence that an airplane that looked beautiful would fly the same way." --- Ben Rich, Skunk Works

This quote opens an essay on beauty by Paul Graham, http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by mixmastamyk on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:15PM (#19505529)
Believe he also had to be convinced by Rich to support the boxy F-117A.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by Teknoman117 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:30PM (#19505696)
The F-117 was mostly a limitation of computing technologies at the time. We (apparently) didn't have the horsepower to model radar hitting curved surfaces, so the boxy plane came as a result of the limitations of the modelling system.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by js2 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:58PM (#19505317)
Function follows form?
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ReptileMan on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:30PM (#19505698)
They merge at a point. The moment they merge you have achieved Nir... Unix ideal.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by frou_dh on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:40PM (#19505094)
> Though perhaps "cool looks" is maybe not the prime factor in fighter jet selection...

The urban legend about why the X-32 lost out to what become the F-35 is it having a stooopid looking mouth on it: https://i.imgur.com/1GW21we.jpg

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by huffmsa on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:13PM (#19505498)
The x-32 was just happy to be there. Like a big metal basking shark.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by knolan on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:44PM (#19505829)
Since the selection of the JSF was during the Clinton presidency, the X-32 was often referred to as Monica.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by lallysingh on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:26PM (#19505656)
Some mean looking teeth, or a spooky spiral may have changed that.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ohaideredevs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:34PM (#19505024)
The F-22 outperforms the F-35 in virtually every aspect. It's possible to stick F-35s 360 thermals on the F-22 too.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by Symmetry on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:33PM (#19506299)
It does have some pilots who are real fans of it:

If you were to write down all the ways in which you could measure an airplane—payload, fuel, ordnance, handling—and ask 100 pilots to rank which is the most important, I guarantee you that 100 out of 100 pilots would say “situational awareness.” By far. Not a single pilot in the world would say “turn radius.” Not one. Because the more you know, the more accurately you know it, the better able you are to make a decision.

In situational awareness, the F-35 is superior to all platforms, including the Raptor. I’d never been in an airplane that so effectively and seamlessly integrates information to tell me what’s going on around me—and not just from the radio frequency spectrum, but laser, infrared, electro-optical. That’s usually the first thing people notice when they get in the airplane. They know so much more than they ever knew before.

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/f-35-faces-mos...

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ohaideredevs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:24PM (#19507314)
You can stick every sensor on the F-35 onto the F-22. It would not be difficult to do so. Now, the question of why they haven't, is an interesting one. And part of the answer is that EODAS is not performing as well as promised.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by greedo on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:05PM (#19508094)
It would be extremely hard to do. The F-22 bus is antiquated, and not really designed for expansion. That's one of the reasons the F-22 still doesn't have an IRTS.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ohaideredevs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:03PM (#19508821)
First of all, I can't prove my opinion.

With that said, if push came to shove, the electronics on the F-22 could be quickly replaced/augmented to either have a focused IRST ala the SU-35 or a 360 system like F-35's EODAS. Your argument is in line with "It would be difficult to restart the F-22's production line." Sure, but neither doing that or updating it would cost nearly as much as the amount of money that went into the F-35.

I think IRST wasn't made a priority because the US expects to have AWACS wherever they operate and the F-22s to shoot based on AWACS data without ever actively emitting themselves anyway. That or planes toggling radar one at a time and passing data via datalink to their squadron, which makes them fairly safe (at least that was the idea with datalinks).

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by shawnz on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:48PM (#19505197)
Then why are people buying F35s?

EDIT: Thanks everyone, I wasn't aware that the F22 had a higher price and additional export restrictions.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by nostrademons on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:00PM (#19505349)
Cost. The F-22 costs $200M+ per plane. The F-35 cost $94M for the small initial production runs, and that's expected to come down as production volumes go up and the program cost (which includes large fixed costs like software and tooling) gets amortized over the production run.

One F-22 vs one F-35 is a contest obviously in favor of the F-22. One F-22 vs. three F-35s becomes a lot more ambiguous, particularly when we are not at war and there's no guarantee that any of these planes will do anything more than force projection.

(The F-35 very much seems like a peacetime fighter to me, and that may be exactly what the U.S. needs right now. History has shown that basically all your assumptions about how the next war will unfold go out the window once the next war actually starts. Under those conditions, it may make more sense to try out a bunch of new technologies, keep the defense contractors alive and the aeronautical engineers employed, contain costs, and build enough numbers that you don't get completely steamrolled in the early days of a war. Then when war actually does break out, you rapidly adjust and build the planes that you actually need, when you have real data about what's winning on the battlefield.)

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by njarboe on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:48PM (#19506999)
"History has shown that basically all your assumptions about how the next war will unfold go out the window once the next war actually starts."

Also, don't forget that nuclear weapons still exist. Nuclear powers shooting down squadrons of each others fighters to achieve "victory" does not seem likely.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by nostrademons on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:06PM (#19507163)
Controversial opinion here, but I think nukes are going to be an evolutionary dead-end in the history of weaponry. Either they'll end up getting used, in which case "WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones", or more likely they won't end up getting used because everybody knows that's the outcome, and we'll have more conventional proxy wars where everyone just pretends nukes don't exist.

Other controversial opinion: I think that the assumption that the next major war will be between nation-states is a likely candidate for one that'll go out the window. In my view, the next major war will be like Syria but on a global scale, with many semi-organized subnational groups duking it out in exceptionally nasty urban & guerilla warfare.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by jholman on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:14PM (#19508152)
I thought those were both mainstream opinions.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by mrep on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:56PM (#19505296)
1. F22's are banned from being sold to anyone but the US.

2. F22's are only fighter jets. F35 for better and worse is designed to do just about everything.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ohaideredevs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:26PM (#19507325)
The F-15Es do better in strike roles than planes that weren't supposed to be pure fighters.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by greedo on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:06PM (#19508101)
The motto of the F-15 when it was initially designed was "not a pound for air to ground."
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ohaideredevs on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:34AM (#19554485)
Sure, but Han shot first.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by nemo44x on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:38PM (#19505780)
We sell the F-35 because if it ever came to it, our F-22's would dominate their F-35's they bought from us.

But to be fair, as the other comments have pointed out the F-35 is lower cost, a decent peace time machine and is has flexible configurations.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ceejayoz on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:55PM (#19505277)
For the same reason people buy Corollas when Audis are available. Even with all the troubles the F-35 has had, the F-22s still have a substantially higher unit cost.

The F-22 also can't be sold as an export.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by cm2187 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:58PM (#19505313)
Only version available for export, about half the price.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:52PM (#19505242)
It is supposed to be the cheaper stealth fighter.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by ulkhf on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:19PM (#19513653)
You don't need high turn rates when you have Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (EODAS) like the F-35's cueing High-Off Bore-Sight (HOBS) short-range air-to-air missiles like the AIM-9X.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by monocasa on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:41PM (#19505108)
From what I've heard, the fact that the X-35 looked cooler than the X-32 was a non trivial component of it being selected in the JSF program.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by usrusr on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:47PM (#19505858)
And why not? With the multitude of ground based missiles fielded today, a considerable part of the role of fighter aircraft is status. Imagine a programme as expensive as the F-35 that resulted in a plane so ugly that you'd want to hide it. It would be objectively worse at projecting power without actually fighting it out even if it had slightly better performance characteristics.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by monocasa on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:20PM (#19506161)
Oh sure, I'm not expressing judgement.

Given a volunteer military, and remembering their advertising in high school, they probably want people to feel as cool as possible joining up too.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by darkpuma on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:42PM (#19505125)
That's a damn shame because the X-32 is easily one of the world's cutest airplanes.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by mywittyname on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:02PM (#19505367)
Delivering death with a smile.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by DoofusOfDeath on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:50PM (#19505222)
if "cool looks" was a factor, IMHO the YF-23 is near the top.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by Scramblejams on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:14PM (#19505517)
Yes, amazing looking aircraft. Never seen more beautiful lethality in an airplane.

I've always thought it was a shame the YF-23 wasn't developed into the role eventually filled by the F-35. It had a lower radar cross-section than the F-22, could supercruise faster, had better range, and with the deletion of the afterburners (not necessary for the revised role, especially when you can truck along at M1.8 without them) it could have opened up a lot of space for additional weapons storage.[0] And it was a long way to being a developed aircraft. Could have been finished much more cheaply than the F-35, no doubt.[1]

[0] Not sure of the CG shift implications, though.

[1] Not sure if those savings would have been eaten up by higher operating costs.

Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by greedo on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:07PM (#19508113)
Well, the F-23 was never going to be VSTOL, nor take off a carrier. So it never would have fulfilled the roles of the F-35. It would have been a nice replacement for the F-111 and Strike Eagle however.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by tdfx on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:56PM (#19507079)
I remember an artistic rendering of the A-12 Avenger when I was younger. I thought it was the coolest plane I had ever seen.
Re:The SR-71 Spy Plane Was So Fast, It Outran Every Missile ... by benj111 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:30PM (#19506267)
"If it looks right, it flies right"

Quote I've heard attributed to WW2 pilots, but google isn't helping me with.