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Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by Inu on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:39PM (#19503528)
"Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech." - Noam Chomsky
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by bjt2n3904 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:42PM (#19503596)
Thank you. Free speech isn't just an amendment for the government, it's a principle for society.

If Facebook were a television station with limited air time for a single track, it would be perfectly valid for them to decide (reasonably) who gets air time. However, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube have infinite tracks and time. I don't think the OPs argument is as strong, with that in mind.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:47PM (#19504496)
How does the amount of bandwidth capable for carrying channels relate to whether something should be carried or not in a legal or constitutional sense?

Carrying white supremacist content has a cost to both Comcast and YouTube/Facebook. Nobody expects Comcast to carry the KKK channel and yet they have hundreds of channels and clearly space to carry it. So why aren’t they compelled to do so if Facebook is?

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by bjt2n3904 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:20PM (#19504893)
To answer your first question, the constitutional response would be "it doesn't". Legally, I'm unaware of any edge cases, except potentially some net neutrality related things. (I'm not very certain about NN.)

My point, however, is that this is neither a legal nor constitutional obligation, but a social and voluntary obligation to a free society.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:42PM (#19505117)
Agreed. Just wanted to see if there was some precedent I was missing :)
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by ams6110 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:59PM (#19504670)
Comcast is few-to-many model, Facebook is many-to-many.

A few content producers create the content that Comcast could potentially carry. Comcast selects what they want to provide to their many customers. Comcast has never marketed themselves as a place where anyone can have their content provided to subscribers. Facebook has, in fact that is the essence of what they do.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:47PM (#19503668)
Well now you're violating my free speech by telling me I can't decide what content I host on my website.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by busterarm on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:27PM (#19504262)
If your website's registered userbase is 1/4 of the population of the entire planet, then yes, that's what we're telling you.

It's no longer _your_ free speech.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:32PM (#19504336)
What's the exact threshold? Just curious so I can make sure to stifle my business growth so as not to give up my free speech to not host racist content.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by charliesharding on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:52PM (#19504552)
It's the publisher vs platform debate. If you're curating content based off of promoting your company's vision of acceptable free speech, then you become a publisher and a whole different set of rules apply to you. You're liable for much more in the eyes of the law.

You can't cherry pick the advantages of both and hide under the guise of being an open platform.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:57PM (#19504628)
I think the terminology we have here for publisher and platform don't exactly fit this scenario. I think it'd be wise to find a new label and set of rules that better fits this type of company.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by busterarm on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:37PM (#19505055)
If you want to take that tactic it's probably just better to reframe the argument.

Most of the problems that come from being a massive social media juggernaut like facebook/twitter/etc come from those services being free.

Being free is what makes them massive monopolies and gives them such broad reach. I think 99% of the problem cases AND the lack of competition in the market could be plugged by breaking the ad-supported/VC-supported model and forcing these companies to charge something to their customers.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by bjt2n3904 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:09PM (#19504031)
Absolutely not! I'd be interested in knowing how you came to the conclusion that was my argument.

Rather, it is important for society to support free speech, not just the government. While society is under no obligation to, it's unhealthy to censor speech.

It's even worse when society self censors free speech, and then pretends to still advocate it.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:47PM (#19504504)
I was taking the point to an extreme. You're saying a society should support free speech so Facebook should let the white nationalist content stay on their site (by their own good will, not forced by government). Is that not accurate?

Deciding what I allow on my site is an exercise of my free speech. Why is hosting white nationalist free speech more important than my free speech to not host racist content?

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by vokep on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:59PM (#19503855)
the difference is that youtube/facebook are not publications themselves, but platforms that allow you to publish. So you already aren't deciding what to host, as a user-content driven site, you by default allow anything, then naturally hopefully for moral reasons but necessarily legal ones, you ban illegal content. Beyond that, it still is a privately hosted thing so I'd still agree that your self run user-content based site may ban whatever it likes. However when you reach a general use size, where people rely on your platform for free speech, things certainly feel different. I'm not sure what the right move is, but I don't think its as simple as "my private site is my private site, thats the end of it"
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:52PM (#19504555)
>I'm not sure what the right move is, but I don't think its as simple as "my private site is my private site, thats the end of it"

Well get back to me when you've worked out exactly when a private entity shouldn't be able to decide what content they allow. This ambiguity is really too difficult to figure out.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by vokep on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:09PM (#19504789)
I don't know, or I'd know what the right move is! For this, its sort of a "you know it when you see it" thing, as facebook/youtube/twitter are major platforms used by everyone, and so they feel a lot more like an online town square than a private space. So they are definitely past the line, and ought to have different rules on what content is allowed/disallowed than smaller lower population platforms.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by thieving_magpie on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:12PM (#19504809)
I can agree with you. It's something I've been thinking about lately and I keep coming back to how you'd define this in legal terms. It's tough.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:41PM (#19505103)
The problem is, if they are forced to allow "any legal content", they'll be overrun with spammers and other no-goods, and the users who just want to keep up with their family will all leave.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by dr-detroit on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:05PM (#19503968)
What about the legal risk associated with letting the Frog Brigade post their terrorist cookbook on your platform? Does Zuckerberg have to come to their house and load the bullets into the gun for them so they can make a statement about how angry they are? Because he made an app for people to cheat? I fail to see the connection.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by vokep on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:04PM (#19504728)
>What about the legal risk associated with letting the Frog Brigade post their terrorist cookbook on your platform?

Like I said, banning illegal content is the first step that anyone ought to take. Generally this is done via moderation staff of the site + user submitted reports. If you're providing a free platform and terrorists start using it as their communication channel, then you're only at legal risk if you do nothing to stop them. However, I'm imagining things like the NZ shooter's 8chan post, where a direct threat is made or a direct implication of violent acts to come. Posting a "terrorist cookbook" actually is a good example, as its sort of right on the line. It seems to be the sort of information that only has negative uses, on the other hand its just information, as opposed to an actual threat. I'm not really sure if such things should be allowed... it could be helpful to terrorists which is bad, but also censoring information is nearly impossible and almost always seems the wrong way to go.

>Does Zuckerberg have to come to their house and load the bullets into the gun for them so they can make a statement about how angry they are? Because he made an app for people to cheat? I fail to see the connection.

As do I...I really don't get what you're trying to say here, can you restate?

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by sb057 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:53PM (#19504578)
That's property infringement, not violating speech.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:57PM (#19503826)
There is a huge difference between your website in which you post in your name, and Facebook which was created as a platform to allow billions of people to post in their name.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by ams6110 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:52PM (#19504564)
Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter also have as their primary purpose the propagation of information and messages by and among their users. It's not some incidental or secondary feature. It's what they do. And they promote this to the public with almost zero barrier to entry. Yes they are still private entities, but like a hotel that is open to the public, they become constrained in the restrictions they can impose since they have chosen to be in that business.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by CathedralBorrow on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:19AM (#19511432)
What is the alternative to a private company making their own decisions on what to allow on their platform? A blanket order to not ban any content whatsoever?
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by Throwway32 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:38PM (#19506336)
Free speech isn't just an amendment for the government, it's a principle for society.

Please point out a single society that has upheld absolute Free Speech as a principle for any significant period of time.

The United States has even killed its own citizens when their free speech collided with national security: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/magazine/the-lessons-of-a...

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by sisfs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:15PM (#19507233)
Yelling fire in a crowded theater and calling for the killing of americans are not protected by the first amendment and never have been. They are calls to violence. So no, his free speech didn't collide with national security, his call to violence collided with the full weight of America's call to violence against him.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by int_19h on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:51PM (#19507543)
"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a quote from a Supreme Court decision that put American citizens in prison for the crime of protesting against the draft during WW1.

That decision has since been overturned, thankfully. But it would be good if people who keep coming back to this phrase remembered where it came from, and what it was already used to justify.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by falcrist on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:51PM (#19503740)
Good old Chomsky. I really like his views on this topic. However the question leads down a rabbithole.

Absolute freedom is a contradictory concept. How can you kick an unwanted visitor out of your house because you don't like what he's saying? Aren't you infringing on his rights? Someone needs to draw a line.

So what about a social media oligopoly? How dominant does Google need to be before you have to tell them to allow freedom of speech.

What about network neutrality?

Etc etc...

It's not so easy to answer this question.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by james_s_tayler on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:15PM (#19504099)
It's a centuries old debate initially had out by Hobbes and Rousseau.

Hobbes' famous phrase from Leviathan "bellum omnium contra omnus" (the war of all against all) describes absolute freedom as being problematic indeed. Rosseau provides an answer in The Social Contract to say you can't have a war of all against all, you instead need the state to be responsible for being able to imprison people and collect taxes on them and this alleviates (generally speaking, to a large degree) the problems absolute freedom present.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by int_19h on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:53PM (#19507554)
He's not talking about absolute freedom in general, though. Only about absolute freedom of speech.

And there's no paradox of tolerance with speech - you can tolerate intolerant speech just fine, so long as you police the actions.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by klntsky on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:30PM (#19507358)
> How can you kick an unwanted visitor out of your house because you don't like what he's saying?

This is unrelated. If it is your home, you are free to protect it by any means.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by jrumbut on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:49PM (#19503701)
There's a difference between supporting someone's right to speech and handing them a microphone and gathering up an audience for them.

There is some room for human judgment and give and take here, at this time there is absolutely no shortage of platforms that allow anyone to broadcast any awful thing they can dream up. Email, web sites, street corners, I believe there can be different standards for different places.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by satokema_work on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:03PM (#19503936)
There's no shortage of street corners to protest on. Why are you mad that we pepper spray you when you try to protest in front of the bankers' offices?
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:38PM (#19505066)
That's all fine and good until somebody burns a cross on your lawn. Pretty sure you're not going to be happy with their free speech rights at that point.

Free speech absolutism is naturally at odds with property rights absolutism. The question then becomes under which circumstances should one be given precedence over the other.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by satokema_work on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:53PM (#19503775)
This.

A big problem is oligarchic in nature: if you believe that ISPs should be classified as common carrier utilities that should not be permitted to limit or censor the data you receive within reason, then the oligarchic content hubs should similarly be common carriers of speech.

I don't have a rock solid argument on this, this is just an equivalence I'm asserting.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by lotsofpulp on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:46PM (#19504492)
ISPs are utilities because you only have one option for ISP (running a wire to your house). Content hubs take less than a second to switch, there is no lock in.

The lack of ability to switch providers is what makes it important to have regulations, not just the fact that it is labeled a common carrier.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by vokep on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:13PM (#19504828)
There is a public lock in. You can switch to another content hub like you can move to a new town for a different ISP. I think that's at the heart of disagreement here: do these content hubs count as public spaces for unregulated communication, or as private spaces, regulated at the will of the owner of the space? For many, due to the population present, other content hubs are not the same thing as facebook/youtube/twitter.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by lotsofpulp on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:24PM (#19504938)
What lock in? There is no friction in typing in a different website's address. Just because other people use Facebook doesn't mean you're locked into that. People watch different TV shows, different movies, read different books, this is no different.

No one is stopping you from making your own forum or website.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by naasking on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:13PM (#19508519)
> What lock in? There is no friction in typing in a different website's address.

The fact that all your photos, content and friends are on one platform and not the others, obviously.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by lotsofpulp on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:19AM (#19511431)
That you chose to put there, on someone else’s computer. Other than you and your friends’ and family’s willingness to do work, there is no lock in, and I don’t believe that’s a useful way to define lock in.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by naasking on Thursday March 28, 2019 @08:51AM (#19511653)
So the fact that in the 90s you put your sentences into Microsoft's proprietary .doc format, or that you decided to run your business on Microsoft Windows computers is not lock-in either? What definition of lock-in would you propose that would include the above which is widely regarded as lock-in, but exclude FB as lock-in?
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by int_19h on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:53PM (#19507558)
The utility of the forum comes from other people. Social graph is absolutely a means of lock-in, and it's long overdue for us to recognize that.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by Veraticus on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:44PM (#19503614)
Facebook and YouTube are private corporations and have no obligation to platform any idea. They have the freedom to remove any content on their platforms they like, and your freedom of speech doesn't trump theirs. Of course, you can continue saying whatever it is you like -- you just have to find a platform for it yourself.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by fixermark on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:03PM (#19503937)
Essentially. A person's freedom of speech doesn't imply curtailment of another person's freedom of the press.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by fixermark on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:02PM (#19503918)
... and yet, child pornography possession and distribution is illegal. Do we think Chomsky would find this unacceptable?
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by gpm on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:50PM (#19504535)
I suspect that Chomsky would consider child porn - or at least the part of it that is illegal - not speech in this sense.

Speech is the process of communication ideas. Porn is the process of sexually arousing someone remotely. Criminalizing the latter is not criminalizing the former.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by AnaniasAnanas on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:58PM (#19505319)
You do end up criminalizing numbers though.
Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by sneakernets on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:07PM (#19506033)
There has to be a point where "criminalizing a number" doesn't really work.

A HD-DVD master key is one thing, a huge binary file is another. HD-DVD master key requires specific "numberness" to work, while a binary file can still convey similar information yet be a completely different set of numbers. if I take two pictures in rapid succession of a still life, the two pictures' jpeg data and checksum hashes aren't going to be even close to matching.

Re:Facebook to ban white nationalist content by lukifer on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:37PM (#19504399)
Chomsky’s position is that the burden of proof is on state violence to justify itself, and I think he would agree it’s clearly justified in that case.

However, that’s a very narrowly scoped restriction (and it’s also not clear that such distribution is a type of “speech”). A more appropriate question would be: would Chomsky support free speech for an advocacy group such as NAMBLA, or for creating mangas that depict drawings similar to CP? Those are exactly the type of speech/expression that are clearly vile, yet should still be protected from interference by state violence, from the civil-libertarian perspective.