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Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by pixelmonkey on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @10:13PM (#19497665)
The real amnesia about “open source” history is that, at the time of the formation of the OSI, developers and companies were afraid of Free Software, Copyleft, and GNU. Making free/libre/community code palatable — even merely for re-use — was an uphill battle. Nowadays, use of open source is so pervasive that you get a strange look in developer circles when you use the word “proprietary”. And we are worrying now about paying for committer/maintainer time given how important OSS modules are, especially standard and popular programming libraries and database technologies.

That is quite the inversion. Let’s take an example: search. Elastic has gone public while employing an army of Elasticsearch and Lucene committers, and while selling SaaS and cloud services around Elasticsearch and related projects, thus paying for those committers, creating a massive ecosystem/community, and revenue for themselves (plus return for their investors). A win like that would have been unimaginable in the pre-OSI era. Companies wouldn’t adopt Elasticsearch, wouldn’t put real data in it, and certainly wouldn’t pay some company to run it for them.

Instead, that era saw companies like Verity, FAST, Autonomy, and similar proprietary search engines. Can you even name a proprietary on-premise deployable search engine today? Even if you can, it’s probably powered by Lucene, Solr, Elasticsearch under the hood. That’s how much the entire universe has shifted.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by wazoox on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:52AM (#19500309)
Indeed. Young devs probably can't even fathom that back in the late 80s and 90s, not only everyone used proprietary languages and tools such as DBase, TurboC++, Delphi and Visual Basic, we used proprietary libraries for things such as displaying images or opening network connections, and paid good money for them.

And boy, were they awfully buggy. And you didn't have access to the source to understand why it didn't work, and good luck getting any meaningful support.

Proprietary software really is hell. How that taught us to love the GPL.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by Crinus on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @12:10PM (#19502381)
Delphi comes with the full RTL and VCL source code. You don't get the source for the compiler, but this is useless for anyone than a 0.0000001% of the people who use GCC or Clang.

Also all the tools you mentioned were incredibly productive and with way better documented than any equivalent open source solution today - assuming there is an equivalent open source solution (especially for something like dbase where the best you can find is somewhere between the awful joke that is LibreOffice Base and the plain awfulness of Harbour).

Honestly you used the worst examples you could come up with if you wanted to paint a "proprietary software bad, open source software good" image. Those were excellent tools (yes, including Visual Basic, which like any user friendly tool with a very low barrier to entry was abused to hell and beyond, thus - again like any user friendly low barrier tool - got a bad name for itself).

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by wazoox on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:05PM (#19503965)
I was specifically speaking of the many proprietary libraries that you had to buy for many advanced tasks (or in the vain hope to save yourself time by not writing a video encoder, etc).

Delphi and VB and VC++ and the C Compiler suites for Solaris, AIX and IRIX were mostly fine by themselves, but cost money. Particularly the latter.

Nowadays you see people closing the nagbox in SublimeText to save 10 bucks (or whatever amount this is); back then nothing was free (as beer) and even less free (as speech).

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by Crinus on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:49PM (#19514005)
My reaction was due to the "And boy, were they awfully buggy. And you didn't have access to the source to understand why it didn't work" part. They were not buggy, especially if you compare the equivalents of today and most of the source you would care about was there.

The main thing that modern open source tools do better is the performance of the produced executable by modern compilers is better. But everything else, especially when you go into UI and UX, is much much worse (and most programmers increasingly treating their computers' UIs like terminals from the 70s doesn't help).

I'll agree that the majority of developers today do not want to pay for their tools, but of course with the proliferation of free (as in beer) tools it is expected that the value that people see in their tools (especially when they are surrounded by free tools, like programmers are) will drop dramatically.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by kbenson on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:45AM (#19509345)
> but this is useless for anyone than a 0.0000001% of the people who use GCC or Clang.

I get that it's exaggerated for effect, but that's 1 in a billion....

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by Crinus on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:43PM (#19513925)
It rounds up :-P.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by pjmlp on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:28AM (#19501078)
Apparently there isn't much love left for the GPL.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by Haga on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:21PM (#19505600)
The GPL nevee had much lo e for those who where stuck in jobs to support their family's with reliable income. The day everyone could earn a living doing os work, most software companies would cease to be.

Yet they hide behind a preacher who never stepped into the misery mill himself. You are on the soap box against borders while we mortals must play papers please.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by pjmlp on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:30PM (#19506258)
Easy, want to use the work of others for free? Receive the same as you are willing to give others.

Feel like earning money? Then pay back some of the dues, so that upstream can stay in business.

That preacher is the reason many anti-GPL folks can enjoy Linux, GCC and a comfortable POSIX like userland.

I wonder why they aren't all making FreeBSD a huge commercial success if GPL is so evil then.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by int_19h on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:20PM (#19497925)
Many companies are still afraid of copyleft. When you see what actually gets used in corporate environments and shipped in commercial products, it's almost exclusively MIT/BSDL/AL, some LGPL, and very little GPL.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by simonh on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:28AM (#19500165)
"Used in corporate environments" and "Shipped" are two completely different thing. You will find GPL software all over the place in the enterprise because there is no risk.

You won't often see GPL software in shipped commercial products, because when you ship stuff you might need to include proprietary components you don't want to have to open up. It still does happen from time to time though.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by int_19h on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:05PM (#19505413)
I have personally worked on a GPL component that's a crucial part of a shipped Microsoft product, so I'm well aware that it happens. But compared to non-copyleft licenses, it's a drop in the bucket, even with the industry-wide embrace of Linux. And if Linux couldn't blaze that path for other stuff, I'm not sure what can.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by tyingq on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:42AM (#19499876)
Well, GPL "tools" like Linux, Git, Emacs, etc, will be used. If there's an established pattern that using a GPL licensed thing doesn't trigger GPL terms on their code, companies are fine with it.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by adrianN on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:35AM (#19498397)
And forget about using GPLv3 or AGPL software.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by lucideer on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:24AM (#19499509)
"copyleft" is a loose term used to refer to all GPL-ish things collectively
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by abcdef123xyz123 on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:15AM (#19498903)
Yes. I'm not sure I would say afraid but certainly cautious. I would avoid recommending GPL software to anyone I work with or for. The license is too complicated, the rules too strict (and seem to change with every license version), the FSF is too hardline. Simple, permissive licenses are easier and safer.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by NikolaNovak on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:59AM (#19500362)
I fully agree with the premise and details of your post; to the last point of "can you name a proprietary...", HN tends to forget about / disregard the wonderful world of "enterprise" / "big corporate" software. Most large companies I dealt with are very "modern"/open-source on the client-visible apps; but very proprietary / legacy on the back-office stuff, from ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning - HR/Financials/CRM/EPM and such) onwards. I mean, corporate world back-office still largely runs on DB2 and Oracle databases, the likes of Windows & AIX (HP-UX/Solaris back in the day as well), even z/OS, and it goes up & down the stack like that.

(as a somewhat related stunning bottoms-up anecdote, a young-ish AIX sysadmin at my recent engagement absolutely positively refused to install AIX tools [1] on the servers, as he didn't want to pollute them with that "unsupported open source stuff")

[1] https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/aix-toolbox/i...

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by closeparen on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:57PM (#19498068)
Copyleft became acceptable because we got out of the business of selling derivative works, and started selling network access instead. AGPL is as toxic as ever.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by meditate on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @12:50AM (#19498257)
The common uses of AGPL I've seen are in direct response to the big players trying to swallow things up into their cloud platforms while not giving back to the community. So you can blame those entities for the toxicity.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by mcguire on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:00AM (#19501462)
"Even if you can, it’s probably powered by Lucene, Solr, Elasticsearch under the hood."

There's the rub.

Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by stakhanov on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:52AM (#19500780)
Elastic is the exception, not the rule.
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by xkcd-sucks on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @10:56PM (#19497836)
Well shoot, putting it like that I wouldn't mind it if all the search engines were proprietary and well-documented so I wouldn't have to justify the cost against the less easily quantified cost of using Elasticsearch
Re:The culture war at the heart of open source by Jedi72 on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:37PM (#19497986)
If you want to box up the cost for accounting purposes why not just hire elastic search consultants? From the buyers point of view its not any different from a proprietary company