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Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by mrosett on Monday March 18, 2019 @11:13AM (#19421717)
This seemed like a grab bag of "Here are some bad things about being poor that are vaguely related to privacy" with the only common thread being Professor Gilman's willingness to speak about them. Poverty is brutal, but I'm not convinced that the privacy lens really adds a lot.

I'm also not convinced that privacy problems truly affect the poor more. The government surveillance mentioned here is a big problem. But on the commercial side, companies are a lot more interested in acquiring the personal, financial, and medical data of the rich. And as the article admits, people making higher incomes are more likely to have their information stolen.

A lot of the evidence in this piece amounts to "surveys show that people earning under $40k worry about X more than people earning over $40k." That's a very weak form of evidence.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by UweSchmidt on Monday March 18, 2019 @11:34AM (#19421926)
I think the article is quite specific and articulate about the problem: "Employers of low-income workers listen to phone calls, conduct drug tests, monitor closed-circuit television, and require psychometric tests as conditions of employment."

This makes government surveillance (as serious as it is) feel like a distant, abstract issue.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by mrosett on Monday March 18, 2019 @11:45AM (#19422050)
They also pay low wages, don't provide paid sick days, fire you if you're late, provide less training, and so on. There's a lot of bad stuff about being poor; I'm not convinced that the privacy angle adds a lot.

The sentence you quoted is framed to make some of those things sound worse than they are. "Listen to phone calls" - does that just refer to call centers recording calls for training/quality purposes? And "Monitor closed-circuit television" just is another way of saying "Many low-income employees work in places with security cameras." Finally, "require psychometric tests" sounds ominous, but a) college serves as a long psychometric test and b) interviews are informal psychometric tests.

The unifying thread is that employers have to invest more in supervising low-productivity workers.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by UweSchmidt on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:16PM (#19422375)
Well, if you have been working in a place with security cameras, then that place has gotten worse recently, privacy-wise. 10 years ago they would dig out the surveillance tapes to try and identify a burglar. Now they might automatically detect employee behaviour: That's something that affecs poor warehouse workers.

A lot of that creepy stuff is moving upwards to white collar jobs, does that weaken the argument the article makes or does it just mean the problem is expanding 'upwards'?

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by clairity on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:29PM (#19424317)
> "...employers have to invest more in supervising low-productivity workers."

why do you believe these workers are low-productivity? are they unworthy of dignity and privacy as a result?

why do you believe the employers are qualified supervisors? have you never had a bad manager? might it be possible that the employers have no idea how to encourage productivity, and that low productivity is induced by a coercive and surveilled work environment?

so many assumptions packed into those little words...

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by AlexTWithBeard on Monday March 18, 2019 @11:45AM (#19422038)
listen to phone calls, conduct drug tests, monitor closed-circuit television

In Wall Street these were mandatory since many years ago.

Source: was tested for drugs as a part of my employment screening.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by astura on Monday March 18, 2019 @11:57AM (#19422181)
This is just complete BS, drug tests are mostly required for mid-to-high paying jobs, not your typical low income job. I've never had to take a drug test for any of the sub $10/hour jobs I've worked, I've had to take a drug test for every single software job I've ever worked. In fact, I have an acquaintance who was talking about quitting weed the other day and how difficult is is. When I asked her what made her quit she said "I'm sick of making only $30,000 a year and any jobs that pay over $30,000 a year are going to require a drug test."

Having your work phone calls monitored is hardly something to get worked up about (you're using your phone for work...do you also get mad when your supervisors monitor your work in person?) and almost certainly not specific to low income employees.

CCTV is literally everywhere, nobody low income works in my building and everyone's monitored with CCTV. Big whoop.

Psychometric tests are very, very uncommon and not at all specific to low income employees, in fact, I'd argue the opposite (I mean... college is basically treated as a psychometric test)

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by ctrl-j on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:15PM (#19422365)
> I've never had to take a drug test for any of the sub $10/hour jobs I've worked, I've had to take one for every single software job I've worked.

Interesting. My experience has been the opposite. Haven't been drug tested since I got my last minimum wage job working in a grocery store.

> Having your work phone calls monitored is hardly something to get worked up about (you're using your phone for work...do you also get mad when your supervisors monitor your work in person?)

Uh.. yeah, if my boss starts watching me work directly and isn't actively collaborating with me - I'm going to be looking for a new job..

> Nobody low income works in my building and everyone's monitored with CCTV.

Very curious where you are located? That's certainly not the norm in any dev shop I've worked in. There's cameras on the server rooms - and building security.. but nobody is monitoring the employees. Are you US based?

> Psychometric tests are very uncommon and not at all specific to low income employees, I'd argue the opposite (I mean... college is basically treated as a psychometric test)

College is not a psychometric test. A psychometric test is one of those "You see your coworker report to work drunk out of his mind, do you: A. Contact management, B. Pull out a 5th to help him with the Hair of the Dog, or C. Not notice because you're too high to give a fuck."

I've filled out several of those over the years - ALL for low-wage retail positions. If you want to argue high-earners are tested - the long-form interview process is closer to the equivalent.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by astura on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:44PM (#19422682)
There's cameras on each corner of the building covering the entire parking lot and parameter. Cameras at both front and back doors and entrance way. Cameras covering the entire reception area/lobby from like every angle, cameras in all the hallways, cameras in the server room. There might be more I never noticed.

Typical 21st century office building, really.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by ctrl-j on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:49PM (#19422726)
That's not the same as productivity monitoring. It's really really not.

Cameras for asset protection and building security != your boss looking over your shoulder while you work.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by andrei_says_ on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:45PM (#19423241)
Fun fact, many of the psychometric tests are designed to weed out labor organizers.

Source: a few acquaintances who worked as organizers by strategically taking jobs in certain companies.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by nabnob on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:52PM (#19423312)
That...makes perfect sense actually. Would you happen to have any more information on this topic?
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by andrei_says_ on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:34PM (#19424370)
Not a good idea to share in a public forum as it will likely be weaponized against labor organizers.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by pavel_lishin on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:26PM (#19422503)
If we're throwing anecdata on the pile, my experience is completely opposite. I've never had to take a drug test for a software engineering position - and I would flat out refuse to if a company required one - but I've had to pee in a cup before Kohl's would let me unload their trucks.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by JohnFen on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:58PM (#19423377)
> This is just complete BS, drug tests are mostly required for mid-to-high paying jobs, not your typical low income job.

You may have been out of the low income market for too long. The landscape has changed. The vast majority of minimum-wage jobs come with drug testing requirements in my area. In the meantime, over my entire professional software development career, I have only been asked to take a drug test twice (and declined once -- the job was nowhere near good enough to put up with that kind of nonsense).

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by danans on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:26PM (#19422498)
> This is just complete BS, drug tests are mostly required for mid-to-high paying jobs, not your typical low income job.

I'd offer a different take: they are required often for skilled manufacturing jobs, like for people operating precision or dangerous machinery.

I've seen many anecdotes where factory owners say that they can't find workers for machine operator positions who don't test positive for meth or opioids.

It's also possible that some of those employers are using drug tests as a sort of "morality" bar, but I'd bet they primarily want to protect their expensive capital equipment and their other non drug using employees from potential drug-use related accidents.

But I doubt there is a lot of drug testing for burger flipping or grocery bagging type jobs, especially not in a tight labor market as exists today.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by pavel_lishin on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:27PM (#19422510)
It seems like they're typically jobs where the employee has a high chance of either being injured, or causing a lot of damage.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by asark on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:47PM (#19423898)
My understanding is it's an insurance thing. As in, the owners' insurance rates would be crazy-high if they didn't drug test (at least) anyone operating machinery.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by danans on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:13PM (#19422940)
Yes, that's probably a good generalization of the type of job that requires it - and "causing a lot of damage" even captures the case of high-skilled jobs that require security clearances.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by notfromhere on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:15PM (#19422369)
i've never heard of any place in tech that drug tested that didn't involve getting a security clearance.

no one's drug testing people making 100k+, but drug tests for low-level jobs are far, far more common than you think.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by astura on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:28PM (#19422521)
Sure your cool valley startup with a flip-flop wearing CEO isn't going to require a drug test (and probably not a formal background check), but buttoned up corporate America absolutely does as well as government and most companies who does business with government. So basically most non-small-companies outside of California. Employee drug testing got popular in the early-90s, it was even the topic of a Seinfeld joke. Though I hear its becoming less common in the last few years, and some have stopped testing for marijuana.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/employment-tren...

>There is no definitive data on how many companies conduct drug tests, though the Society for Human Resources Management found in a survey that 57 percent do so. Nor is there any recent data on how many have dropped marijuana from mandatory drug testing.

>After the Drug-Free Workplace Act was enacted in 1988, amid concerns about cocaine use, drug testing spread to most large companies. All Fortune 500 companies now engage in some form of drug testing, according to Barry Sample, a senior director at Quest Diagnostics, one of the largest testing firms.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by cgriswald on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:52PM (#19422747)
Your citation doesn't really support any of the arguments, since it doesn't address which jobs require drug testing at those Fortune 500 companies.

For example, Walmart is number one on the list. Is it the CEO who is being tested, or the guys unloading the shipping trucks?

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by fzeroracer on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#19424325)
I have not once in the entirety of my software development experience been drug tested. Prior to my current job at Large Corporation I worked at a government contractor.

Not that I ever did drugs because there was no way I was going to risk the government coming down on me, but it's an example of how drug testing is still something mostly relegated to the lower paying jobs unless your employer has reasonable suspicion in the case of government work.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by notfromhere on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:46PM (#19423258)
I've worked at a few non-small companies outside of California, literally none of them have even floated a drug test.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by reallydude on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:47PM (#19422711)
Off the top of my head....medical software companies almost always require it (hey, it's basically free for them, since they have their own labs), any company with older tech like Coldfusion, ADA, etc seem to test to weed out developers who are scraping the bottom barrel due to undisclosed personal problems, financial/real-estate software companies, and this is all on top of rigorous background checks that may or may not matter. The drug test matters.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by JohnFen on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:44PM (#19424453)
> i've never heard of any place in tech that drug tested that didn't involve getting a security clearance

If the company is accepting US government contracts, and you would be working on a team under such a contract, then the company is likely to be required to drug test you even if a security clearance is not required.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by notfromhere on Monday March 18, 2019 @06:03PM (#19425805)
That's actually pretty rare. I've worked at places that did government contracting and none of the teams directly servicing those contracts were tested, neither was anyone else at the company.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by JohnFen on Monday March 18, 2019 @07:33PM (#19426445)
Thanks for the correction. I was really just going by what I've heard from colleagues, but my specialty is network security and the requirements may (or may not) be stricter there.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by andrei_says_ on Monday March 18, 2019 @01:42PM (#19423216)
If financial professionals would be forced to drug test then there would be very few working financial professionals.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by dictum on Monday March 18, 2019 @12:00PM (#19422223)
> But on the commercial side, companies are a lot more interested in acquiring the personal, financial, and medical data of the rich

That's not what VC's obsession about scale is all about. Volume matters. Millions of poor parents buying diapers can make an empire.

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by bluGill on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:41PM (#19423836)
Poor people are at risk. Even though they are poor, they collectively have more money than the rich have collectively. Target a rich person for a million, or a million poor people for a dollar, either way you have the same amount in the end. There are different ways you target each, but there are plenty of scheme to choose from on both ends. (or even in the middle)
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by JohnFen on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:52PM (#19424525)
> Even though they are poor, they collectively have more money than the rich have collectively.

That entirely depends on how you define "rich" and "poor", which is a nontrivial thing to decide. In 2019 in the US, the top 10% wealthiest households collectively have more than twice as much money as the bottom 90% collectively. But lots of people in the top 10% don't consider themselves "rich".

Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by bluGill on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:56PM (#19425195)
Of course. If you want to play games with numbers you can make them say anything you want. To reach the top 10% you need just over $100,000 in income. That isn't rich in most people's book, though it is upper middle class.
Re:Trading privacy for survival is another tax on the poor by JohnFen on Monday March 18, 2019 @07:29PM (#19426412)
> That isn't rich in most people's book

Depending on the part of the nation you're talking about. In much of the nation, exceeding 100k makes you unambiguously wealthy. In other areas, you'd have a hard time living anything more than a squarely middle class lifestyle on that.

It's not about "playing games", it's that economic conditions vary so wildly across the nation that you can't accurately characterize what's "rich" and "poor" using the same scale everywhere.

That's why I say that determining "rich" and "poor" is a difficult thing to do.