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Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by weavejester on Friday March 15, 2019 @11:40AM (#19400674)
" There's no public right to have a music app be charged a certain amount that's called "fair". Spotify could charge nothing to consumers, and be charged nothing by Apple. It's their choice. It's Apple's choice."

Competition laws place limitations on what a business can do. They're not free to sell or price entirely as they please.

In this case Spotify are arguing that Apple is using its dominance of the smartphone market to give an unfair advantage to its own music store. Whether or not this is true is up to the courts to decide, but it's not a frivilous case; there's a real risk to Apple that they lose.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by supernova87a on Friday March 15, 2019 @11:45AM (#19400722)
Well, that is a separate and good point, and very much a political one. And you can never tell with the EU.

As I said in a comment far below here, it's a funny thing, how to define anticompetitive and monopoly practices, depending on how you frame the scope of the market. See Peter Thiel's book for a chapter on this.

You could say that Apple has a monopoly over developers building apps and providing their services to people using iPhones. Someone else looking at it could say that Spotify has a multitude of ways to provide its content to customers -- web, it's own Windows + Mac desktop apps, Android, etc.

Which way is a regulator supposed to look at it?

The point about Apple Music is also interesting. Actually Apple Music (the streaming version) I believe came after Spotify. Anticompetitive regulations are about penalizing behavior that discourages new entrants to the market. Apple Music was actually the newer entrant in that case.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by s3r3nity on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:49PM (#19402232)
I am very hard-pressed to believe iOS has a monopoly by most arguments.

Market share argument:

Android has 71% market share in the EU, as of February 2019 - compared to iOS's 21%. [1]

Ease of customer switching argument:

If Apple pressed too much in a way that harmed consumers, there are many other cheaper alternative Android phones vs. iOS to which they can easily port their number over (say what you want about ISPs and Telecoms, I find this to be pretty easy in the US - unless you signed an unreasonably stifling contract. Admittedly I'm unsure how difficult this would be in most of the EU.)

Supply-Side Price elasticity argument:

In theory, if the 30% cut was too high, developers wouldn't want to develop on the iOS platform, and would instead focus resources on developing on Android; the specific cut would be at an equilibrium point that enough developers would find profitable, and would still provide choice in the app marketplace for customers.

[1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by jeremydeanlakey on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:36PM (#19403381)
Your argument relies on combining the markets for iOS and Android apps into a single market. These are separate markets because you can't put an Android app on iPhone or an iOS app on Android.

If iOS had 100% share, you probably wouldn't say it doesn't have a monopoly on apps because you can just use desktop apps instead.

I also wouldn't say Comcast doesn't have a monopoly because they only have xx% share and you can move to a different state or country and get another provider. Or use your phone for internet instead.

> Ease of customer switching argument

This is confusing the consumer market for smartphones and the markets for distribution of smartphone app.

> Supply-Side Price elasticity argument

Yeah, if any monopoly's cut is too high, you can exit the market. This is not an argument that the monopoly is not a monopoly. This only means there is a limit to the monopoly's power.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by nihonde on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:21PM (#19403893)
Defining markets is what competition law is all about. There will be enormous resources thrown at both sides of this argument. I think odds are in favor of Apple. They’ll will win on the basis that the market is mobile devices generally.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Aloha on Saturday March 16, 2019 @01:18AM (#19406466)
Thats like saying that the market for car parts for fords and chevrolets are separate market and monopolized by ford and chevrolet respectively.

It's bunkum and doesn't fit with 100 years of antitrust law.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by jeremydeanlakey on Saturday March 16, 2019 @09:40AM (#19407772)
If the products aren't interchangeable, then they are separate markets. Someone in the market for a part that fits a Ford can't solve their problem by buying the similar part that only fits a Chevy. Likewise, he can't but a new tire to replace a carburator. The tire and carburator are also in separate markets.

However, he can buy an aftermarket part. It's a different product but the same market. So they don't have a monopoly.

I don't know much about antitrust law so I can't comment on that But I do understand basic economics. And from an economic perspective, Apple most definitely created a monopoly which they most definitely use for rent seeking.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by crumpets on Saturday March 16, 2019 @01:10PM (#19408863)
None of your comparisons are apt because desktops are not smartphones.

An android phone is just as portable and has all of the same features as an Apple phone. The only day to day difference is having access to the apple ecosystem.

It’s nothing but a minor inconvenience to switch between android and iOS. The same can’t be said for any of your other comparisons.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by jeremydeanlakey on Saturday March 16, 2019 @02:32PM (#19409356)
> It’s nothing but a minor inconvenience to switch between android and iOS.

Switching includes spending hundreds of dollars plus hours to setup and figure things out plus several days of frustrating adjustments.

You might call that a "minor inconvenience". It certainly is more minor than my examples above. But that absolutely is enough to separate the two app markets. Virtually nobody will switch systems for an app.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by weavejester on Friday March 15, 2019 @10:04PM (#19405943)
"Android has 71% market share in the EU, as of February 2019 - compared to iOS's 21%."

I think it's worth pointing out that Spotify is a Swedish company, where iOS has a 58% market share, according to the site you linked. It could be that Spotify's main markets are ones where iOS has a more significant share.

"In theory, if the 30% cut was too high, developers wouldn't want to develop on the iOS platform"

The problem is not just that Apple is taking a 30% cut; it's that it's also running a competing service. Spotify are arguing that Apple are unfairly using their supposed dominance in one market (phones) to achieve dominance in another market (streaming music).

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by sbuk on Saturday March 16, 2019 @05:52AM (#19407097)
They're complaint has been made to the EU. Besides, they are a global company in many markets. Spotify are not "the little guys" they are claiming to be.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by shroom on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:31PM (#19404000)
Part of the point Apple is trying to make is that the AppStore helped Spotify grow their business and prove the business model. Spotify really took of when they started the beta of the iOS App. In Sweden, and then rolling out to the countries in EU, where iPhones (at least at the time) had a dominant market share.

I still find it true that a lot of the early iOS users still have their premium subscription. And I wouldn't be surprised if iOS is dominant in the premium users of Spotify today.

I found the response by Apple good and I think they've helped Spotify grow a lot. Suing Apple feels a bit like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Jyaif on Friday March 15, 2019 @05:06PM (#19404292)
> I think they've helped Spotify grow a lot

Well no, Apple's even admit that Spotify didn't get their subscriptions through them: "only a tiny fraction of their subscriptions fall under Apple’s revenue-sharing model"

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by malshe on Friday March 15, 2019 @06:50PM (#19405051)
That means that only a fraction of iOS user bought Spotify subscription through App Store. It doesn’t mean that many iOS users are not paid subscribers.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by SZJX on Saturday March 16, 2019 @05:52AM (#19407095)
Even the Apple statement acknowledges that the majority of users are on the free plan and bring revenue through ads.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by oarsinsync on Friday March 15, 2019 @11:49AM (#19400755)
> Anticompetitive regulations are about penalizing behavior that discourages new entrants to the market. Apple Music was actually the newer entrant in that case.

A bit of apples to oranges comparison, but Internet Explorer was also the newer entrant in a previous case.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by weavejester on Friday March 15, 2019 @10:18PM (#19405995)
"Actually Apple Music (the streaming version) I believe came after Spotify. Anticompetitive regulations are about penalizing behavior that discourages new entrants to the market.

What? No, they're not just about protecting new entrants, and if you think about it for five seconds it should be obvious why. Microsoft lost it's 1998 antitrust case, despite Internet Explorer being released after Netscape.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by dzhiurgis on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:58PM (#19404236)
Does Apple Music has to go thru app review process, is forbiden from private api use and overall started with 30% handicap?
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by sbuk on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:22PM (#19401928)
> "In this case Spotify are arguing that Apple is using its dominance of the smartphone market to give an unfair advantage to its own music store." You forgot to add context; by charging 30% on IAPs. The fact is Spotify don't need to use IAPs for subscriptions. Apple even mentioned this in TFA.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:31PM (#19402035)
But Spotify can’t even tell users how to upgrade to premium according to Apple’s rules. The best they can say is “You can’t upgrade to Premium in the app. We know, it’s not ideal.”
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:13PM (#19403157)
Right, because Apple does not want them using the App Store platform to promote, sell, and execute payment on a premium service without paying a cut of the premium price to Apple, as per their explicit platform rules.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:21PM (#19403232)
That’s what I said in my comment, and what Spotify is arguing. They have to follow rules set by Apple that Apple doesn’t apply to Apple Music.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:32PM (#19403341)
Honest question. Internally, do you know if the Apple Music division of the business still tracks a 30% payment to the App Store division of the business? If this was the case, does that change your opinion here?

I honestly cannot see the legal footing in this whole thing to claim that Apple has any sort of obligation to be "fair" here.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:38PM (#19403406)
I don’t know if Apple Music has to pay 30% to Apple, but either way It wouldn’t change my opinion and I don’t think it would make a difference to the EU. It’s illegal in most places to use your dominance in one market to your advantage in another. Google got fined by the EU for doing that with Android and Chrome/other GApps. I personally think Apple should allow developers to link to an external payment system for subscriptions/iAPs if they would rather set all that up themselves, but we’ll have to wait and see what the EU decides.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Spivak on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:25PM (#19403937)
It seems like you've set up an opinion where Apple Music is not allowed to exist in any form because Apple obeying the App Store rules like any other app is not considered enough.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:42PM (#19404087)
I have no problem with Google Play Music/YouTube Music because those are treated like equal citizens with Spotify on Android. I think it’s better for everyone if Apple Music’s competitors weren’t at a disadvantage just because Apple makes the platform, and I say this as someone who owns many Apple products.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by read_if_gay_ on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:36PM (#19409740)
There are many instances where competitors are more or less disadvantaged because the owner of the platform is also competing. Does your favorite supermarket have a store brand? Are you against that?
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by sbuk on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:40PM (#19402122)
If that is their argument, then it's pretty weak IMO.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:47PM (#19402199)
They’ve listed all their arguments on their site www.timetoplayfair.com, although I wish some where more technically in-depth.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:34PM (#19403351)
>I wish some where more technically in-depth

Or even just any legal depth. It's all just PR fluff speak.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by sbuk on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:23PM (#19403926)
www.timetoplayfair.com?! I have no sympathy for Spotify WRT "playing fair". Match Apple, or even better Google when it comes to paying artists, then we'll talk. They even discuss, as market leader, offering predatory pricing! The rest, as evidenced by Apple's response is seemingly misrepresenting the facts. To be fair, Spotify's marketing team have taken this straight out of the Steven P. Jobs play book; pick a fight.

Personally, I use Amazon Music because I get it as part of Amazon Prime. It has most of the music I want to listen to, but not all. I was considering Spotify, but with nonsense like this, this is one potential customer that they have lost.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by PascLeRasc on Friday March 15, 2019 @02:24PM (#19402660)
How do Netflix and Hulu get around this?
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by teddyfrozevelt on Friday March 15, 2019 @02:31PM (#19402731)
When you download the Netflix app, you only get a sign in button. The only extra info you get about how to get a Netflix account is a help button that calls support. I don’t know what Hulu does, but I presume something similar.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by bubblethink on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:01PM (#19403649)
That's a good point. Most of this boils down to not having an upgrade nag prompt. Since netflix doesn't have a free tier, they are less affected. Spotify is in a tough spot because they want free users to upgrade.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @05:17PM (#19404384)
They choose not to promote premium services whose payments are executed outside the Apple ecosystem, using (free) advertising channels within the Apple ecosystem.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by scarface74 on Friday March 15, 2019 @08:36PM (#19405611)
You can subscribe to Hulu within the app.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by ppeetteerr on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:30PM (#19401222)
I keep hearing this but it doesn't make it true: Apple does not have dominance in the smartphone market. It barely reaches 20% of the smartphone market in the EU.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:39PM (#19401341)
Spotify is obviously going to try and define the relevant market as something that frames Apple as dominant, but I'm struggling to figure out how they're going to do that. You have to define the market as some set of products that are "interchangeable" to consumers. Apple is under 20% of "smartphones," globally, and somewhere around 25% of the EU.

I don't think you can say that the App Store is itself a relevant market. Especially when you consider that Spotify's exact same services are offered across many other platforms. When you can interchange Android Spotify and iOS Spotify and receive the exact same product and services from Spotify, then how can you frame Apple as a dominant undertaking?

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Jyaif on Friday March 15, 2019 @05:08PM (#19404314)
If multiple companies are selling the same product, and one company is making more profit from this product than all the other companies combined, wouldn't you say that this company is dominant?
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @05:13PM (#19404348)
It's not about what I would say, it's about how a dominant undertaking is defined under EU law. Which isn't just "ah that makes sense" as it's basis. There are legal statutes and court precedent that must be argued to prove the definition of the relevant market, and then to prove that Apple is a dominant undertaking within said market. None of this has to do with my feelings about Apple or how "fair" they are being. I have zero knowledge of EU case law, so it's hard for me to make a definitive, sourced argument here to answer your question. I just don't think it's such an open and shut case of market definition NOR Apple's dominance.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by andromeduck on Friday March 15, 2019 @06:13PM (#19404807)
No. I would say that that company is more profitable.

Is Porsche more dominant than Toyota?

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by FireBeyond on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:35PM (#19401303)
It's not about how much dominance it has. It treats its own music platform differently (not subject to Apple Store fees) than any other music platform.

Like Microsoft bundling/treating IE differently to any other browser on its platform.

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by detaro on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:56PM (#19401576)
Lots of regulations in that area are tied to market influence. The Microsoft case was about Microsoft pushing IE through their dominance in PC sales.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Benjammer on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:37PM (#19403390)
It feels like 99% of people are skipping over this necessary condition of Apple being a "dominant undertaking," as defined by EU law, which seems very tenuous at best, no matter how you try to frame the relevant market.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by abalone on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:31PM (#19402025)
It dominates the profits (87%)[1] which probably correlates with the premium subscriber market.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/03/02/apple-con...

Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by ppeetteerr on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:43PM (#19402155)
That's not how you measure market dominance.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by lwansbrough on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:37PM (#19401315)
Not sure why you’d use the EU as the market indicator. They dominate North America, which is where the biggest market is. In the EU, they are the second largest behind Samsung but it’s close and they change spots from time to time.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by detaro on Friday March 15, 2019 @12:38PM (#19401326)
Because Spotify has filed a complaint with the EU about Apple's behavior, which is why we're talking about all this right now.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by zaptheimpaler on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:51PM (#19402270)
Apple isn't doing anything to Spotify that they don't do to all apps - both the app store rejections and the fees. It seems wrong to call that anti-competitive in favor of Apple Music.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by pritambaral on Friday March 15, 2019 @03:08PM (#19403094)
But they are doing something to Spotify (and all other music streaming apps) that they don't do to their own app.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by Spivak on Friday March 15, 2019 @04:26PM (#19403958)
Ethically I think you might have a point but having a different set of rules for 1st and 3rd party applications isn't a super new idea.
Re:Addressing Spotify’s Claims by burke on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:57PM (#19402339)
But it isn't necessarily wrong to call that anti-competitive in favour of Apple in general.