> Choose life, not career. Find something you love doing and do it for the 'work' itself, not for some postponed happiness.

Insightful story about the investment banker. Your policy about choosing life feels like good advice in light of that story. The implementation details, that’s where it always gets difficult.

My story:

I want to make music. I think of music all the time. Whenever I made music I was passionate about it.

However:

- my music training is limited

- people that I know who are amazing alternate from being homeless to renting out a place. They are poor.

Do I have that much passion that I want to risk 10 to 20 years of my life in poor wealth and perhaps poor family life?

No. I want to live a middle class life while making music.

Sounds realistic?

Just follow your passion people, the invisible hand will help you.

Obviously I am cynical about this, I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong, for I would love to make music.

To build on what you said: in my twenties I fell in briefly with a group of pretty elite level, classically trained, working musicians. Though I am not a music person at all myself. I would go to their (very fun) parties and just got to know them and their scene a bit. Do you know what they talked about more than anything else? More than theory or favorite artists or their instruments?

Money.

They had to be obsessed with it, about where to get it, what gigs were paying how much, about when to sell out for it. Because none of them had any, but they all still needed to pay the rent.

Amazing people, astonishing talent, wild life. Constant worry.

Yep, that's the whole problem with this "follow your passion" BS. I'm the opposite: I work in a tech job on something I really don't care much about, but the pay is excellent, and the stability is actually pretty good too. I work 8h a day, I have an easy commute, I don't stress about money. I have a pretty easy life that way. But it also feels pretty empty in some ways, but the way I see it I've removed what for me was a big stressor in my earlier life. Maybe later, after I've saved up a lot, I can think about doing something that brings me more fulfillment, but for now I just concentrate on enjoying my free time, and look at work as just that: work.

I also look at the janitors in my building when I leave work in the evening, and remind myself that they're not following their passion either. Most workers do not get to do anything that really excites them. So I count myself lucky that I can do something that doesn't ruin my health or make me hate life, and I can get paid well for it, so instead of worrying how to pay rent, I can worry about less urgent things like what to spend my weekend doing. Plus, with my free time (since I don't have a job that's overworking me, like some people), I'm free to pursue my other passions there.

You have a great outlook on things in my opinion. Cheers!

>I want to live a middle class life while making music. Sounds realistic?

Not even remotely. These days the arts are for trust fund kids or risk-takers, not those aspiring to be middle class.

Following your dreams is a multi-generational undertaking.

Only rich kids get to follow any dream they want.

If you're not rich already your job is to get rich so your kids can follow their dreams.

Look for the middle ground. I realized that I want to work on things I like, but I still need to eat, so I've decided to split my time. I want to work at least an hour to something I'm passionate about. That way, even if I spend more of my time working for someone else, I know I still spend some of my time doing something I love.

So follow your passion, but also your survival instinct.

> So follow your passion, but also your survival instinct.

As far as simple quotes go. This sounds optimistic, yet reasonable.

Based on your advice, maybe I should just go to Thailand and freelance as an app/web dev for 3 days per week and play guitar / make electronic music for the rest. I'd wonder how I'd prepare for economic down turns though.

I'd make about: 5000 euro's per month (@ 50 euro's per hour as a freelancer). Living on about 10000 euro's per year, I'd save 20000 euro's after taxes (Dutch, high taxes, yay!). Regardless of that, I guess I wouldn't need to worry about recessions after 2 years of part-time remote freelance work, not in South East Asia anyway.

Sounds doable, at first glance. I need more glances. Especially the, "what about my girlfriend, friends and family?" glance.

Worry about a wife and kids when you WANT to worry about it. Living the life you want is the best way to meet a partner who supports that lifestyle.

Maybe one day you’ll decide it’s time for kids, and both you and your partner decide to head back to the EU for that. Or maybe you’ll raise kids in Thailand. Or maybe your partner will get an amazing opportunity somewhere else entirely and you can be a stay at home parent, making beats while the kids are at school.

It’s your life. Live it the way you want. Don’t worry too much.

If you're making 50 euros per hour, couldn't stay in the Netherlands, so that you get to be with your girlfriend, friends and family and still work 3 days per week? I think 5000 euros per month should be enough even for the Netherlands. It's true that you would save less, but you would get to be with your friends and family.

Or you could just go to Thailand for a few months, so you also scratch the traveling bug. There's nothing stopping you from coming back when you start missing the people close to you. You have options.

Then get cancer and die young.

Hey Retra, I looked at your comment history, to see why you'd possibly be saying this.

I've noticed two type of comments that you made:

1. Comments that have substantial reasoning, mostly technical but not always. These seemed to be appreciated.

2. Short comments that seemed to attack the person or a particular concept. These short comments did not have any reasoning from your side. Also, most of these comments are non-technical.

My first thought was: it seems that you have a lot of technical knowledge, and people appreciate this. I know I do.

Two observations on the category 2 comments you make:

1. In the comments that I skimmed, no one seemed to tell you to read the guidelines. I'll post the link [1]. Saying "then get cancer and die young" is an offensive thing to say because you're attacking the person. For some people this is obvious, but based on your comment history, I doubt whether this is obvious to you. Attacking a person is not a civil thing to do, not a nice thing to do (unless it's meant in a constructive fashion, even then it'd be debatably constructive). Regardless of that, it is in violation of the guidelines. As a technical person, I hope you'd appreciate that I'm pointing to a source appointed by Y Combinator. They make the rules on how to behave here, so then behave like that, the guidelines are reasonable. You seem to do so in most of your comments.

2. In most cases, short comments don't work quite well on Hacker News (many counter examples exist, I'm describing a trend which I observe). This is not because HN'ers dislike discussion, they dislike a discussion that does not have scientific evidence (again, a trend), most already have a problem when someone says "based on my experience". Do with this observation what you will, it's just my observation which is biased as well.

I hope these two points will help you to improve your comments like these ones, because it is obvious that you have a lot of insightful things to offer. And HN would be a more fun place if we'd see more of that and less of "then get cancer and die young" type of comments.

If you want a private conversation about this, you can always email me (check my profile).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html -- read the section "In Comments"

I understand that what I said was possibly ambiguous, but I was not actually suggesting to someone that they should get cancer. I was 'bookending' a story that they were implicitly telling, in an attempt to point out that "going for your dreams" can easily run off the rails due to circumstances out of your control, and that a reasonable person might rather spend their efforts building a safety net for themselves, so that they will be able to go after there dreams without worrying so much about such matters.

Unfortunately, the more effort I seem to put into a post, the less effort others tend to put into reading it, so we all walk a fine line between precision and conciseness, and sometimes we end up on the wrong side. I don't take it personally.

Haha, that isn’t how I saw it.

That’s a sad bookending :(

There's always a possibility of that happening, but you shouldn't let it at the forefront of your mind. Unless if it makes you appreciate every day more.

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

I've heard this story before and I love it, but there is an important point missing. The fisherman may one day find that he can no longer catch enough tuna in just a little while to support his family. At that point he may find himself in much worse shape; maybe he has to work a lot more, or commute into town to work at the factory, or even move someplace with more opportunity. The post-retirement banker does not have that problem. I think the banker would say that his over-work earlier in life has bought him optionality that the fisherman doesn't have.

I think about this in my own life. I don't want to be like the banker, deferring my real life into the future while focusing on work. But I also don't want to be like the fisherman. I want to strike a balance that allows me to live a fulfilling life while also using the fact that my skills are currently in high demand to but myself some optionality for a future in which they may not be.

I can't say that I agree completely with the message from this story, but I do think the point would be stronger if the last bit was changed to:

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to an exclusive coastal tourist village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your grandkids, take strolls with your third wife, go to an expensive place in the evenings where you could sip fancy wine and watch people who remind you of your old amigos play the guitar.”

> Find something you love doing and do it for the 'work' itself

People keep repeating that advice, but finding something you love doing just for the work might be an endless chase, not unlike the chase after success and money.

Some of us actually feel that it is easier to chase money than it is to find work you really love.

Yes.

I am so tired of people parroting "Do what you love."

Real life isn't a Disney movie. Doing what I love, I would be lucky to make $10k a year.

You know what else I love beside that? Making enough money to eat.

You know what I REALLY like, knowing that I'm making enough money now to GUARANTEE my dreams will come true.

Not scaping pennies together as a starting artist, crossing my fingers, and hoping that one day I get my break. No, I did that for 10 years. You know what I noticed? No one ever gets a break.

> Real life isn't a Disney movie. Doing what I love, I would be lucky to make $10k a year.

Unfortunately, an increasing number of people don't feel this way. Their solution is to increase their salary (and benefits) at the ballot box.

Or fortunately, depending on your sociopolitical views, assuming you're talking about universal basic income?

I think he meant more like minimum wage increases and health insurance mandates.

I'm talking about anything and everything that the many choose to take from the few.

Dollars are a social construction of disassociated trust of value, wherein your ability to establish rent grants you power over rentees. Votes are another way of expressing power, wherein your ability to establish a majority opinion grants you power over the minority. Seems like the equilibrium would be at the point where power expressed by the renting class is only just not quite able to override the power expressed by the majority opinion.

Where do I put my cross to make more money as a tea farmer?

Even worse. Doing something you love for work means you end up hating it for a lot of people. Then you spend your entire life drifting and finding nothing else you love.

I do something I hate enough to walk in with a sword and fight it every day.

I'm a bit mixed in this. I've actually had both experiences. I've turned two hobbies I loved intoy full time job.

The first one (magician) went as you stated, I ended up hating it, or atleast hating it as a job. It paid pretty well, but performing because I had to instead of wanted to made a big difference.

On the other hand though, I also took my hobby of hacking stuff into the my current career doing application security consulting and vuln research. Also pays quite well and I enjoy my job quite a bit, possibly even more than doing it as a hobby.

So with a sample size of me, that's 50/50 odds on finding something you love working out as a job you love. Not great, but imo not reason to atleast take a shot if your passion also happens to pay well, and is feasible.

> “Man. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.” - Dalai Lama

I like the quote but sorry the Dalai Lama never said it: http://thedamienzone.com/2011/10/12/dalai-lama-quote-on-face...

That's one way to look at it. Another is that one uses the early retirement as a driving goal that ultimately helps one grow. Yes, you may afford to retire and live mediocre if you want, but would you now, with your newly realized potential that the journey towards your previous goals helped you discover? For many that choose to continue, I guess it's that old saying "it is better to wear out than to rust out", the difference between those who work affording to retire comfortably in any moment and those who don't is the kind of work they do. That is the real prize worth pursuing. As regarding to publicly declared goal, it's just a good enough explanation to feed the inquisitive spirits. And it's more comfortable for them hearing that you have to work in order to make it (towards a different level than they do, but still, a shared experience there) instead of bragging that you don't have to crawl any more.

You can grow, but you'll experience growing pains your whole life. Maybe that is a fair tradeoff.

This. I left my job last month while making $500K/year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19135399. I realized that after I attained a basic level of financial security (bills on autopay & some savings), addition income stopped mattering for my satisfaction. I don’t intend to retire. Work gives me satisfaction, but I want to work on my terms and doing things that intrinsically motivate me. Trying to find satisfaction in earning as much as possible is an unachievable thing.

I like to start doing things, just because I want to, and do not have to stress about it being "likable" by others, and thus generating money.

I make some woodworking? No thinking about starting an instagram account, gathering audience, trying to sell, making a newsletter..

I travel? No need for me to publish travel hacks stuff just to fund my travelling.

We work in IT, we are very fortunate to make $$$. Let's work part time, and have more time for us, really for us.

Agreed. I'm at a stage in my life where my median friend probably is between 'just entering the workforce' and maybe 2 years of experience (from uni). One reoccurring idea in my mind right now is the notion of 'selling out'--what does the transition look like from "I'm happy living frugally like a college student" to prioritizing your career in your waking hours of your life? What does it look like to slowly convince yourself that just getting that next raise will finally make me happy (even though I have to sacrifice other things to do so)?

In my experience, even if you stay frugal, and I did, the main change comes from the job requiring full-time hours (and some weird culture stuff). I worked part-time in college and programming hasn't changed, but then I had daylight hours to walk outside, the freedom to stay home if I felt sick, etc. I started working F/T and almost immediately, the hour+ commute and not seeing daylight in winter rewired my brain. Suddenly, my mornings were spent preparing my lunch so I could go to work, my evenings cooking dinner and recovering from work, and on the weekends, I did everything except talk about work. (In those days my partner was still a student, and it made the contrast greater).

After the first year, my work had become my only source of pride; after the second, I was constantly wondering how to be better at work; three years after that, I engaged in a hobby for the first time in my adult life. It snuck up. I don't like money that much and I never made the conscious decision to prioritize my career; but it ate my life and I doubled down because it was all I had left.

The fact is, for most young adults, jobs pop into their life right on cue to replace the family they're no longer seeing and the dreams that have disappointed them (around 25 where that first crisis hits). If you're 25 and lonely do not go to work happy hours. If you're bored don't take work home. When your boss tells you you're very promising and he can see you grow in this company, tell yourself you're an interesting person who's had a life full of stories that people would love to get to know. The best promises are the ones you make yourself.

Well that one is easy: Get a girlfriend, like each other enough that you move in together, have a child. Boom, your most attractive option is now a decent, steady and slowly increasing pay check every month.

I found that fortunately right out of school I was very content- I had roommates, but I enjoyed that lifestyle. I had enough to put away each month into retirement and outside savings accounts and life was good.

Then I got a serious girlfriend. We moved in together. We were getting a bit older and eating dinner on the couch because our tiny apartment couldn't fit a table grew old. We got a bigger/nicer place. This was ok, I was making about 2x what I was when I first got out of school. Life was good.

We got married, we hit 30. We were tired of being at the whims of landlords and ever steeply increasing rents in our area. We bought a condo, with the intent on staying put more than 3 years (as opposed to moving every 1-2 like we had previously. It was a big scary commitment to take on, and it was right in the middle of the financial crisis. My comp stagnated for 3 years as I was at a company that at the end of each year said "well you know, money is tight..." Overall though, we could afford our place, our savings was growing, and as we started leaving the crisis, my retirement and brokerage accounts started to bloom. I eventually ditched the shitty company and joined a legit tech company for a 50% total comp increase. At one point, all my other savings exceeded what I owed on my mortgage, which was a big relief. I life was good.

We have been married about 5 years, our condo is great, but not big enough for a family. Our neighborhood, which we love, and while was one considered "bad" is now quite desirable as people realized the commute into the core of the city was quite easy. Property values are through the roof. I DREAD the notion of going back to living in a check to check fashion. An upgrade to a forever home in our area is going to cost us 2-3M. My wife and I both work relatively long hours. We either face moving out of the city and into the burbs, but trading that for a long commute, or having a mortgage that could potentially ruin us and cause great stress. I like my job, but I did get a call from a competing company, where I could potentially 1.5x my comp again... life is good?

I hope this gives some perspective on how the salary treadmill happens. We are in a very high cost of living area/tech hub, this would look a lot different if I was in the midwest, but I think this path is pretty typical for those living on the coasts these days.

I'm in kinda that position (keeping the condo not having more than 1 kid, though). And honestly the sad thing is the kids don't care. Growing up my parents did the whole, salary treadmill, long hours, 30% travel, Saturday conference call business. The money's gone. The vacations forgotten. It kind of sucks nobody cooked in my home and I had to learn how to boil pasta at 17. I don't have college debt, but it's not like I use my degree anyway. I'm not sure all the stuff my parents doubtless told themselves they were doing for me was worth it.

You’re alive, it sounds like your life is pretty stable, and you obviously understand the value of providing for your own kid(s). I’d say your parents spent their time well, even if they (like all of us) made some mistakes along the way.

One of my favorite sayings is that every single new parent, upon arriving home with their first child, immediately realizes that they have no clue what they’re supposed to do now. We’ve all been there, and so were our parents.

Those who choose to try and give their kids a good life at their own expense are always doing something right.

It just becomes the new norm because of the people who surround you, there's no need to convince yourself. Your current norm as a student living relatively frugally is also shaped according to your context. There's a point where you realize: "My norm has changed." You might not find yourself believing the next raise will make you happy. But it might help with the feeling that you're treated unfairly.

For me it's about security and freedom, not "keeping up with the Joneses". I earn a good salary for the UK, even if it might look small compared to the US salaries. But I've been very careful not to inflate my lifestyle too much. I don't have an expensive car. I don't go on expensive holidays. I save approximately 40% of my take home pay. I feel I need to do this because I won't necessarily be employable long past 50 and I don't feel like I can buy a house or cohabitate with a spouse.

> But I've been very careful not to inflate my lifestyle too much. I don't have an expensive car. I don't go on expensive holidays.

That's what I noticed during my undergraduate years in the UK after growing up in continental Europe: "lifestyle" for most people in the UK from the young age is associated with spending money on material things and holidays, not pursuing life-long hobbies and interests.

In much of continental Europe people seem to be enjoying their lives a way more, despite often earning 2-3x lower salaries while doing similar jobs.

In my own country, even a person making 15k / year might have a second home in the countryside, where he spends every summer weekend with his friends and family.

The UK is very similar to the US, the culture is quite individualistic which leads to a consumerist outlook. You can opt out of that but you won't get much support, indeed people will mostly push you towards it. The rot set in with Thatcher and it's got steadily worse since then.

> a second home in the countryside, where he spends every summer weekend

So, material things and holidays? All that says is that those things are cheaper for people outside of the UK.

The second home is usually a hobby by itself that includes building, woodworking, gardening, some light plumbing and electrical stuff etc. It's very different than a hotel or Airbnb.

People without big salaries often have second homes because they built them themselves as a hobby over a long period of time on a plot of land they could afford.