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Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by kappi on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:05PM (#19382324)
Boeing 737 Max 8 has a different software system. That software is now a focus of investigators. The Max 8 is outfitted with bigger, more fuel-efficient engines than earlier 737s, and the weight and positioning of those engines shifted the plane's center of gravity forward, increased the potential for the nose to pitch up after take-off. To counteract this risk, Boeing developed software known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS.

Max 8s come equipped with a sensor that reads the plane's angle relative to the wind flow, prompting MCAS to automatically trigger the plane's nose to angle downward if it gets a specific reading.

However, problems could arise if the MCAS system gets erroneous sensor readings. The system automatically pushes the plane's nose down, potentially surprising pilots who are unfamiliar with the system and overriding their commands.This is what investigators believe happened to Lion Air Flight 610 before it crashed in October

more details https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737-max-8-boeing-737-800...

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:09PM (#19382373)
>The Max 8 is outfitted with bigger, more fuel-efficient engines than earlier 737s, and the weight and positioning of those engines shifted the plane's center of gravity forward, increased the potential for the nose to pitch up after take-off.

Umm, a little confused here, if the center of gravity shifted forward, why will the pitch up tendency increase?

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by aphextron on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:14PM (#19382466)
>Umm, a little confused here, if the center of gravity shifted forward, why will the pitch up tendency increase?

Because the center of thrust is also moved forward, and its effect is much greater than that offset by the center of mass. The 737 airframe was never designed to handle such powerful engines.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by teleclimber on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:33PM (#19382709)
The center of thrust moving forward would not have any effect on the pitching moment.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by aphextron on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:51PM (#19382953)
>The center of thrust moving forward would not have any effect on the pitching moment.

Sure it would. Here's a better explanation than I care to make: https://www.quora.com/Where-should-the-center-of-mass-lift-a...

"If the Center of Thrust does not act through the Center of Gravity there will be a moment causing the aircraft to pitch, yaw or roll about the axes of the aircraft and the moment(s) must be counter balanced by design (including provision for trimming when the thrust is varied)."

Boeing chose to counteract that newly induced pitch moment with software, so that they could sell the MAX 8 to airlines as not requiring any new training or type ratings. And now nearly 400 people are dead because of a marketing decision.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by teleclimber on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @04:16PM (#19383289)
If you move an engine forwards (or backwards) you are moving it along its thrust vector. Therefore the moment resulting from the distance between the thrust vector and the center of mass is unchanged.

Source: Physics 101

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @05:25PM (#19384009)
Right, but if you increase the power, you increase the moment.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by gsnedders on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:33PM (#19382707)
It's also a vastly longer aircraft than originally designed: the -100/-200 are 29m/30.53m long. The MAX 8 is 39.47m long. (And the MAX 10 will be 43.8m.)
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by sangnoir on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:19PM (#19382532)
It's not the center of gravity that causes pitch-up - it's additional lift by engine nacelles at higher angles of attack; this lift increases the AoA further due to the position of the engines relative to the wing. This feedback loop leads to a stall when the angle gets high enough
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:26PM (#19382617)
Probably not completely true. An airfoil stalls when the critical angle of attack is exceeded. For most airfoils, this sits at around 17°. For all commercial aircrafts (I think 727 onwards) there is a mechanism called stick pusher that will not allow an airfoil to go over critical AoA. I am not sure if this has been overridden somwhere in the 737 Max 8 though.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by sangnoir on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @11:13PM (#19386256)
I was describing the physical "bug" Boeing was solving in software: MCAS is a stick-pusher because it forces down the nose - which led to the Lion air crash because of a faulty AoA sensor made MCAS avoid an imaginary stall, forcing the nose down into a powered flight into terrain.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by tostr on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:34PM (#19382738)
Are you saying 17deg from horizontal? Let's ignore wind and other influences. A normal plane can not climb more steeply than 17deg?

I'm not implying you're wrong, just very surprised to see this low a number. I would have guessed much closer to something like 45deg, maybe even more.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:40PM (#19382806)
The Angle of Attack is defined as the angle between relative wind and chord of an airfoil. So if your engine has enough juice to climb at 45° (and many aerobatic aircrafts do), your relative wind is coming at 45° from ground, but almost at 0° with respect to the chord. So your wing is still flying.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by Gibbon1 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:23PM (#19382573)
They should have put spoilers on the nacelles instead of trying to fix the planes bad aerodynamics in software.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by iamaelephant on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:39PM (#19382792)
Yeah you would know.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by Gibbon1 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @04:14PM (#19383261)
How do you know that I don't know.

Please explain.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by gilbetron on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:17PM (#19382499)
I think it is actually that shifting the gravity forward makes the flight control surfaces more effective because they are now further away from the CG, but that's just from years of developing flight sims for the Navy, and no real knowledge ;)

It also could be with the engines moved forward from the wings a bit, their thrust tends to rotate the air frame "up".

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:22PM (#19382569)
You are right. Airframes are designed to be nose heavy. The wings tends to fly up, whereas the elevators tend to fly down. In a dead stick condition, the airplane is designed to fly with a pitch down attitude so you don't lose airspeed and have enough airflow over the wings to continue generate enough lift to glide. If the CG shifts forwards, it is actually a good thing.

Source: I am a pilot.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by TimTheTinker on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:27PM (#19382629)
It’s also that the engine nacelles themselves begin to produce lift (and a consequent pitch-up moment) at high AoA.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:32PM (#19382698)
Oh well, I did not know that. Do you have any citation that explains this further?
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by cjbprime on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:14PM (#19382458)
The pitch up tendency is only increased at high angles of attack, at which point the engine nacelles themselves add extra lift, possibly inducing a stall when you're already near one.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by olivil on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:22PM (#19382570)
This is all in relation to the wing as the point of rotation.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by erokar on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:11PM (#19382404)
It happens when thrust is added abruptly, in e.g. a go-around.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by subhro on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:12PM (#19382426)
Still does not explain the relationship between forward shifting CG and abrupt thrust.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by salawat on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:28PM (#19382641)
It's hard to describe, but here goes.

The Center of thrust is offset down and somewhat in front of the CG, this means high thrust imparts a pitch up moment. Small, but present.

The bigger problem is the nacelles shape though, they create body lift at high AoA; imagine a vacuum bubble trying to suck the wing/nacelle backwards forming in the airstream, "pulling" them back.

Combine both of these characteristics, and you have an airframe demonstrating near stall positive pitch instability. I.e. you get a moment that if left uncountered will reinforce itself until the plane ends up stalling; behavior completely unprecedented in the airframe.

So in order to "counter" this behavior an automated system was introduced which supposedly restored the pilot relative flight characteristics in line with the old airframe's specs.

I'm probably oversimplifying, but it's the closest I can get to a visualization that makes some sense.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by CydeWeys on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:19PM (#19382520)
The center of thrust is shifted forward when the engines are shifted forward.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by clarkmoody on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:25PM (#19382605)
Aircraft engineering is a highly coupled discipline. Change one part of the system, and multiple other systems might need to adjust.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by trhway on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:31PM (#19382673)
> The Max 8 is outfitted with bigger, more fuel-efficient engines than earlier 737s, and the weight and positioning of those engines shifted the plane's center of gravity forward, increased the potential for the nose to pitch up after take-off. To counteract this risk, Boeing developed software known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS.

reminds a typical enterprise software project - deep serious issues stemming from screwed up basic architecture are hastily patched up by software patches. Sounds like it was a money saving architectural decision as development of more deep modifications to the airframe to allow for those engines to be positioned safely would definitely cost more than a software patch. And after the Lion crash the Boeing is doing patches for the patch ...

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by SilasX on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:34PM (#19382722)
I'm excited to hear the software gore on this one.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by iscrewyou on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:14PM (#19382462)
Regarding your point of bigger engines, I understood it differently.

The bigger engines provide a lot of thrust and with the new position of the engines, it’s a lot easier for the plane to stall. So the plane was outfitted with a sensor and software that reads the angle of attack and it corrects it in case the plane reaches the factor of safety angle.

If the sensor malfunctions, the software would get wrong readings and try to correct something that doesn’t need correction. It moves the plane nose down. Pilots correct. Process repeats. Hence the elevation fluctuations seen in Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines.

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by throwaway427 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:34PM (#19382727)
It's also possible that that software system isn't triggered the same way on AA and SWA 737s as it is on the other airlines...
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by jahewson on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:20PM (#19382538)
> Max 8s come equipped with a sensor that reads the plane's angle relative to the wind flow

Just the one sensor?

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by dlgeek on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:36PM (#19382762)
One on each side, but only one per flight computer (flight computers are redundant, but only one is active at a time).
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by 0xffff2 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:51PM (#19382955)
Additionally, there is an optional feature to add a cockpit warning if the two sensors disagree, which could have helped the pilots diagnose the issue in the case of the Lion Air crash. The Lion Air plane did not have this option; not sure about the Ethiopian plane.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by Luc on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:27PM (#19382627)
Hmmm, this 'comment' is just some copied paragraphs from a different news article, i.e. http://kcfj570.com/2019/03/12/how-is-the-boeing-737-max-8-di...
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by e40 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:29PM (#19382659)
And I'm pretty sure I saw it in another thread here on HN (not the same person, I just checked this user's comment history).
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by MagnitudeFC on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:29PM (#19382656)
busted!
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by youeseh on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:29PM (#19382646)
Awesome! Saves me time from clicking on the link and finding a paywall, or even hunting for the pertinent information :). [edit: should've at least given credit though].
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by dang on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:38PM (#19382782)
We've banned this account for plagiarizing from another source. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe this won't happen again—and also that you'll follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html in the future.
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by kappi on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @04:06PM (#19383156)
Don't understand the need for banning. I forgot to copy the link of news article.. Anybody can easily see that it is an official or news language and not a comment from me. It is copied from the below bigger article

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737-max-8-boeing-737-800...

Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by dang on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @04:44PM (#19383538)
Ok, we'll unban you. In the future, please use quotation marks or some other standard indicator (e.g. italics, which you can get by enclosing text in asterisks) to indicate that you're quoting.
[dead]
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by erokar on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:12PM (#19382427)
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by throwaway427 on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:24PM (#19382585)
You keep posting this Reddit comment in every single one of these threads. Maybe lay off for a bit?
Re:U.S. to ground Boeing 737 Max 8 by aerovistae on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @03:11PM (#19382412)
That doesn’t link to a comment, it links to the parent post