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Re:Leaderless Debian by oblio on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:44AM (#19368591)
The thing is, for a long time, deb/apt were way superior to what rpm/yum offered. Heck, Debian had apt way earlier than Red Hat had yum.

If anything, Red Hat should have adopted apt.

In terms of sheer number of dumb competing initiatives, Ubuntu > Red Hat > Debian.

Re:Leaderless Debian by xioxox on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:12PM (#19369680)
Deb/apt might have been nicer to use, but as a packager I found the packaging format extremely horrible to work with.

There's a very complex interaction between the various files which define a package. It's extremely hard to find out what debhelper and its associated commands are actually doing and to debug them, particularly if you're trying to split a package into multiple parts. I gave up several times trying to make my package before finally succeeding with a simplified version. I'm not sure I will understand how it works when I go back to it.

On top of that the sheer volume of rules and regulations, different packaging helpers and out of date suggestions just added to the problem.

Deb has far too much magic. Rpm is much clearer. I can define a simple configuration file which takes the source, patches it, builds it, and describes the packaged files. I've never had a problem understanding an rpm source package.

Re:Leaderless Debian by dredmorbius on Friday March 15, 2019 @06:41AM (#19398390)
That's because APT serves the user rather than the developed.

As a sysadmin, of one box or 100k boxen, I'd have a hell of a lot less apprehension about installing a DEB than an RPM. Thanks largely to Debian Policy, which governs how packaages will behave.

The fact that Debian has an order of magnitude more in-repo, in-distro packages also counts for something.

As well as the fact that I can start with a minimal installation and add to it only what the box actually needs, a process Red Hat and RPM have never adequately supported.

Source: Have run both, personally and professionally, for nearing a quarter century.

Re:Leaderless Debian by liuw on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:04AM (#19368805)
I upvoted you. Yes, APT was the major reason I chose Debian 15 years ago. It was much better than RPM without YUM (it wasn't part of RH systems back then IIRC).

Nowadays the competitive edge of APT could have diminished, but I never looked else where because I have been quite happy with APT.

Re:Leaderless Debian by orev on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:02PM (#19369529)
Yum has been around for so long that I really can’t believe people still bring this up. Even a decade after yum came around, I still heard Debian people comparing “rpm” vs “apt”, which is a completely apples to oranges comparison. I can only assume that those Debian people were so out of touch with other distros that their opinions could not be trusted.
Re:Leaderless Debian by stirfrykitty on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:40PM (#19370062)
Yum has been largely replaced by dnf, which is far and away better. Despite being a Debian/Slackware fan since 1998, I do find dnf quite nice. It's still a fair bit slower than apt or pacman, but it's clean and easy to use. Slackware actually has package management systems, but I encourage people to learn how to do things the old school way so they can learn Linux. If you know Slackware, you understand how Linux truly works. Package managers are great for production systems, especially stuff like apt and for the odd systems with software hangups, apt pinning.
Re:Leaderless Debian by orev on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:55PM (#19375021)
Yes, but my point is that Debian people always seem to cite “rpm hell” with regard to manually tracking down rpm dependencies, while ignoring the fact that that hasn’t been a problem for decades.
Re:Leaderless Debian by jonhohle on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:50AM (#19368665)
I’ve never understood the pure love for apt. Ports/pkg is better. Gentoo’s package manager is better. Even yast was better (imho).

Once I needed a package from an external repository, apt has almost always fallen down into a pit of duplicate and incompatible dependencies. Maybe it’s better now, but I was burned long ago and never looked back.

Re:Leaderless Debian by oblio on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:57AM (#19368731)
I haven't had a problem with apt since I was using Debian Unstable (sid) back in 2005... and even then, I think I installed stuff from other repos that conflicted with the base system.

Portage is cute but it's tied to Gentoo and few people want to compile their own packages.

Apt was one of the earliest package managers for Linux, for a popular distribution. That was enough to give it a head start regarding packages available. And that's all you need, unless the other solutions are obviously superior from the user perspective, which they're not.

Re:Leaderless Debian by asark on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @01:13PM (#19370501)
> Ports/pkg is better. Gentoo’s package manager is better.

Strongly agree. Gentoo's Portage is the best experience I've had with a package manager on Linux.

My package management observations, as someone who's been using them for... a while, now.

Best experiences: Portage on Gentoo (lots of options; many packages; fast; reliable unless I broke it doing something stupid; maintaining a high level of control over the system at a low level is the only way I've ever managed to make Linux behave itself), Homebrew on MacOS (great package selection; casks are wonderful; outstanding CLI; keeping user packages away from the core system has really grown on me)

Middling: apt on Ubuntu and Debian (OK but increasingly feels dirty after getting used to Homebrew and keeping my user packages separate from the system; breaks "on its own" more often than Portage did, though still rarely; package selection just OK)

Bad: Yum/RPM on Red Hat, Fedora, and long ago, RPM on Mandrake (sloooooooowwwwwwwww and RPMs seemed to break constantly back when I used them), Macports on MacOS (slow; broke so bad the easiest thing to do was to delete the whole dir and start over about once a quarter; limited package selection)

Incidentally, Gentoo's OpenRC is the only Linux init system I've ever used that I liked and felt like I actually understood well enough to use it without apprehension or constantly needing to check documentation.

I like the idea of Nix and tried NixOS once but after an hour or so of following a guide and troubleshooting couldn't get X running so gave it up as "for those with more free time than me—try again in a few years".

Re:Leaderless Debian by checkyoursudo on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @07:32PM (#19374151)
Portage and OpenRC are the two reasons that I keep Gentoo as my daily.

I try about 1-2 other distros every year (in VMs or a spare laptop), and I always stay with Gentoo. I won't go so far as to say that it's objectively better, but after 10 years or so just nothing else compares for me.

Re:Leaderless Debian by oarsinsync on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:41AM (#19369223)
Linux had/has more mainstream support than FreeBSD, unfortunately, so ports/pkg never really got the attention and love it deserved.
Re:Leaderless Debian by ilovecaching on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:58AM (#19368743)
So I've heard this before, and I really want to know what are the things that make apt better? The only thing I can see is that yum was pretty slow (dnf seems to be marginally better). Otherwise, the rpm package format seems pretty on par with deb and apt seems like a super crusty interface with multiple commands and stuff.
Re:Leaderless Debian by oblio on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:09AM (#19368865)
Debian had a much more rigorous packaging policy than Red Hat/Fedora Core early on (the same policy that slows down development and annoys developers today, as you can see in the various recent HN threads) and way more packages in the main repos.

Using RH easily led you into an "rpm hell" of packages from various third-party repos that conflicted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell#Platform-speci...

Now they're both comparable. Yum/dnf are ok, the rpm repos are big. And apt actually has "apt", the tool, that consolidates those separate tools you mention. Before it had aptitude (since at least 2006 or so, I'd say) but it wasn't used much, but now apt is installed by default and you can use it. No more "apt-get", "apt-cache", etc.

So today, nothing makes one of them substantially better, IMO.

Re:Leaderless Debian by geofft on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:17AM (#19368961)
apt is a dependency resolver, and both apt-get and aptitude (an alternative implementation) are good at dependency resolution. Pre-yum (so for RHEL before 2007), there wasn't a good dependency resolver on RHEL. yum and dnf have each improved significantly on this, but it's a lot nicer to get the packages you need and know that they're compatible than to find RPMs and install them and see if things work.

As a consequence, Debian packaging policy is (in my experience) a lot more aggressive about using detailed dependency-resolution metadata to establish constraints and define compatibility, which makes for a more annoying developer experience but a nicer end-user experience.

Re:Leaderless Debian by servilio on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:57PM (#19370309)
I will one thing: apt pinning[1]. It allows you to tweak the way apt choses the version to install, and allows you through a configuration text file to give higher (or lower) priority to specific releases, repository components, repositories, package names, etc.

I started using it before 2005, before backports was a thing, and it was a lifesaver for my desktops, as I usually wanted to use newer versions from testing or unstable.

[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en....

Re:Leaderless Debian by craigsmansion on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:41AM (#19369224)
> I really want to know what are the things that make apt better?

For apt as a format probably not so much anymore. For the Debian apt repositories it's the several thousand capable and driven maintainers.