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Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:06AM (#19338090)
This is an excellent goal, and Paul Graham has articulated the reasoning pretty clearly: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/886953410356011008

> Here's how to explain to people the distinction between fighting poverty and fighting economic inequality. If you're fighting poverty, you might say "Let's have universal health care." If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. And Larry, please don't start Google." Otherwise Larry's going to mess up your numbers big time.

Since reading that, I've realized that a major part of my political beliefs is that future Larrys should be unable to start future Googles in their current form, and in particular that I don't believe it's a just use of the powers of government to enable the creation of future Googles.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by CPLX on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:40AM (#19338440)
> If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. And Larry, please don't start Google." Otherwise Larry's going to mess up your numbers big time.

That's fucking idiocy. Or more accurately, propaganda from a billionaire with extreme vested interest in this topic.

It's pretty straightforward to say "Go ahead and start Google, and if it succeeds we're going to have some basic rules about worker's rights and compensation you'll have to follow, and we're going to tax a much larger percentage of your personal gains, but you'll still be very, very rich". At which point you're also fighting economic inequality.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by thr_w on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:58AM (#19338662)
Agreed. This avoids the common argument against socialism removing incentives to success, while still providing social safety nets. Allow people to succeed, but when they do, tax them and regulate them to benefit the less fortunate members of society. The rich got rich in part because of the protections and services afforded them by our modern society. In having reaped a greater share of benefit, why should they not contribute a greater share of taxes?

There is a stark difference between socialism rooted in the above idea and socialism rooted in jealousy and vindictiveness toward the wealthy just because they're wealthy. We're not trying to punish the wealthy and we can still allow them to be very wealthy. But as the US currently stands, the wealthy could contribute much more while still having far greater quality of life than almost everyone else.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by CPLX on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:12AM (#19338814)
The argument that there won't be incentives for success is and has always been ludicrous. It's not based in any kind of empirical reality, just on an emotional theory that people won't work if you tax them more, and an Ayn Rand novel or two.

The reality is that people compete for status, success, money, and power, within the framework they are given.

I mean we've actually tried this. If you take a group of incredibly skilled business people and tax them heavily you don't get some dystopia, you get Switzerland.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by davidgay on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:13PM (#19339530)
I'm not sure that a country without capital gain taxes (Switzerland) is the best example for highly taxing successful business founders...
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by CPLX on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:29PM (#19339742)
True, but also the Swiss have a direct tax on corporate capital, a VAT, a policy of taxing capital gains as regular old income for professional investors, plus many other subtleties and differences that don't fit on a bumper sticker. I think my point stands.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by CamperBob2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:01PM (#19340168)
I mean we've actually tried this. If you take a group of incredibly skilled business people and tax them heavily you don't get some dystopia, you get Switzerland.

And what important/useful companies, tech or otherwise, got their start in Switzerland?

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by onemoresoop on Friday March 08, 2019 @04:03PM (#19342145)
There are many examples, but here's one: Logitech
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by pmcollins on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:33AM (#19338372)
So if a very capable, a hard working, effective person is able to increase their wealth by 20x, and in so doing increases my wealth by 2x without my doing anything, you'd be in favor of using the power of the state to prevent this from happening because it would increase inequality?
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by quadrangle on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:08AM (#19338760)
If you think the debate is purely about relative wealth, you are misunderstanding most of it.

But even still: relative wealth distribution getting too extremely unequal has negative ramifications for any society, regardless of the absolute wealth. But again: that is NOT the issue in this case.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/02/22/697170790/anti... for more perspective, a bunch of discussion about antitrust issues in big tech and NONE, ZERO, NADA of it is about wealth and money in itself.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by StreamBright on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:17AM (#19338886)
>>> relative wealth distribution getting too extremely unequal has negative ramifications for any society, regardless of the absolute wealth

Like what exactly?

I do not understand why people are upset over extreme wealth. I think Jeff Bezos deserves to be a billionaire and I would not want to live in a society that does not allow people like him succeed and accumulate this sort of money. The quetion is what happens with his wealth in the second and third generation. Historically in fedualism this was passed down to the next generation and the family would keep it until end of the feudalism era. In a capitalistic society it deisappears within 2-3 egenerations, especially with people like Bill Gates. Not sure what is the problem here.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by CamperBob2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:03PM (#19340188)
There's this weird notion that you can improve your lot in life by worrying more about the contents of other peoples' bank accounts than you do your own. I don't get it either.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by quadrangle on Saturday March 09, 2019 @02:33AM (#19344972)
I don't have time to answer your specific claim about why relative wealth inequality is a problem even if the poor aren't miserably poor. It's a complex and deep subject. There's resources out there if you are curious. And yes, there's a good share of BAD arguments against wealth inequity (lots of people who are just resentful and superficial and believe even factually wrong things) — so you could spend your time convincing yourself that everyone you disagree with is an idiot. There's no shortage of idiocy. But you can also find the real stuff from smart and expressive people discussing these things better, and that's what you should try to find. Sorry for not picking out citations, I'm already procrastinating too much by writing this.

Now, Jeff Bezos is absolutely a remarkable and unique person who worked very hard and intelligently to get to where he is. But on just the pure matter of "deserve" it's so much more complex than the way you are looking at it. We don't live in a fair world. Look up "just world fallacy". In a world that is quite out of alignment from what we'd have if everyone got what they "deserve", it's simplistic to look at select cases like Bezos and judge from there.

But that's not what this is about AT ALL.

The concept of anti-trust and of managing this stuff is about power. The question is whether it's okay for Bezos and the whole company really to not only be wealthy but have monopoly-like power in the market. I have no reason to believe you checked out the link I posted earlier because you went on and repeated arguments about wealth — and this is NOT about that, not philosophically or legally. It's not even about taking away Bezos' wealth! Anti-trust is not about wealth redistribution, it's only about stopping anti-competitive threats to market competition.

> In a capitalistic society it deisappears within 2-3 generations

Well, that's just factually wrong. Capitalism doesn't just automatically do that, and the evidence doesn't support that claim either. And we don't have any sort of "pure" capitalism in existence to even study anyway. You need to get beyond these superficial specious ideas if you want to understand the reality. Start by treating your presumptions as hypotheses and figure out what evidence would be scientifically strong enough to validate or invalidate them and see how they hold up.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by StreamBright on Saturday March 09, 2019 @06:13AM (#19345630)
> In a capitalistic society it disappears within 2-3 generations

>>> Well, that's just factually wrong.

Really?

http://money.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/the-real-reason-bil...

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by quadrangle on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:47AM (#19346669)
Not sure what to make of that first link. The first one is a bunch of quotes about wealthy people worrying that their kids are irresponsible and this one uncited sentence aligned with the headline:

> Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy.

What is that? Sounds like a marketing claim by a company catering services to the wealthy about how to keep their family wealth. I can't just accept it blindly.

I agree that in the (unusual) case of Gates, he's obviously not just hoarding and passing on his wealth directly, but the upbringing and advantages his kids are getting plus $10 million leaves them still really wealthy compared to nearly anyone else on the planet regardless of the fact that it's a miniscule fraction of Gates' current wealth.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by sooheon on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:50AM (#19338570)
Not OP, but my take on that is this: if that industrious 20x / 2x value creator could exist in a vacuum there's no reason to stop them. Im fine even with a 1000x / 1.1x split, ceteris paribus. My problem with aggregation of wealth and power is not with numerical inequality, but with the "evil" that can follow--rent seeking, externalization of costs, monopolization. If the externalities end up 0.5x-ing everyone else's wealth, this is a problem.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by nabla9 on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:53AM (#19338602)
You should think in the terms of opportunity cost.

The alternative to what you suggest is not zero growth of wealth. It can be even larger growth of wealth when the markets work better.

The type of anti-markets and pro business approach where big corporations are shielded from the markets and monopoly powers are allowed as long as antitrust felony crimes don't happen is perversion of capitalism. The ideological foundation for this tinking was laid out in Robert Bork's book 'The Antitrust Paradox' (1978) that Reagan administration used as their bible.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:01AM (#19338694)
Yes, that's what being anticapitalist means.

I'm good at what I do and I work for a hedge fund because they'll compensate me well for it. I increase the productivity of other people at my company, without them doing anything, by giving them better platforms for their work. Chasing salary is the obvious locally rational action for me, but it's inefficient for the world. I could be making life better for the world if I could be funded to work on, say, Debian instead of our in-house build system. And I probably could be funded at about 1/20 of my current salary to do it, and provide 2x productivity benefits for you personally, but the incentives of a capitalist society mean that isn't the right decision for me.

However - you say "using the power of the state to prevent." I am not in favor of that. I am in favor of ceasing using the power of the state to enable. The government could stop recognizing the right of corporations to property and to the labor of individuals at any time.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by nabla9 on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:25AM (#19338302)
I think the first remedy should be prevent acquisitions after companies grow past certain size.

Google, Amazon, Facebook and Apple innovated at their own in the beginning, but once the cash from network externalities started to pour in, they stared to buy market share and buy into the markets. Google did not invent Gmail (Postini), Android Inc, YouTube, AdSense (Adscape), Google Analytics (Trendalyzer), Google Maps (Endoxon).

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by burroisolator on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:12PM (#19339519)
Don't forget DoubleClick in addition to Trendalyzer for Google Analytics.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by all2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:10AM (#19338128)
But that also means conglomerates like GE, or Raytheon, or Lockheed Martin...

There is a place in the world for massive technologically focused organizations.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:11AM (#19338140)
Er, what is the place in the world for them? Defense contractors should be ground to bits.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:38AM (#19338411)
This view misunderstands the nature of modern science and R&D. Interesting R&D is shockingly expensive, and you need mega-corps to do it. The cost of a new fab is $10 billion now, and it's been increasing exponentially. The 747 cost $7.5 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars to develop. The 787 cost almost $30 billion. The future of science and technology is not Edison inventing the lightbulb in his private lab. It's mega-corps doing mega-R&D.

This used to be less true in CS, but that's changing due to machine learning. Google has a huge leg-up in self-driving-car R&D because of the enormous amount of data it has from Google services. In "hard" R&D, even "startups" are spending the kind of capital that previously used to only be in the province of established conglomerates.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:47AM (#19338509)
I agree you need significant amounts of resources / capital to do it. I disagree you need megacorps to do it. It's inefficient for the means of production to be held by a private company looking out for its own interests and wealth and not the good of society: even if you want the military to be more capable, the military-industrial complex is a bad way to do it. And the argument that startups need to spend money on their own fabs is an argument these shouldn't be in private, competitive hands.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:54AM (#19338608)
At least the U.S. government does an absolutely terrible job with the capital-intensive infrastructure it touches. Having it be in charge of something like a nuclear reactor or a chip fab would end technological progress.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by throwawaymath on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:26AM (#19338310)
Well, the device I'm typing this on was sold by a massive, vertically integrated technology company. So I guess that's one helpful usecase.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by sooheon on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:45AM (#19338486)
That reads like Graham is poking fun at Google/Larry opposers, am I missing something? He's saying fighting poverty by bringing up the bottom is noble, but fighting inequality by capping the top end is foolish.

BTW I agree with him in the sense that indices like Gini coefficients etc. are not comprehensive enough, and optimizing for simple numbers leads to distorted outcomes. I also agree with you in the sense that top heavy players in the economy are harmful to the extent that they seek rent and prevent competition.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:49AM (#19338542)
Yes, he's being sarcastic, but I think his words have a point if taken straight, so I'm being counter-sarcastic. PG says "You believe this thing I think is nonsense, right?" so I say "I absolutely believe this thing which you were serious about, right?"
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by isoskeles on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:48AM (#19338526)
> People who say economic inequality is bad and should be decreased don't realize they're saying this, but they are. Which is my point.

Sounds like Paul Graham was saying that stopping founders is some unstated but believed goal, and is a poor one.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:55AM (#19338630)
Depends what you mean by "founders." You can certainly enable people who have interesting ideas for worthwhile projects without enabling them turning into owners of megacorps, and I think he's playing on the confusion. Google the search engine started as a Stanford research project, and we should, as a society (I'm intentionally not saying as government) provide additional support for grad students who want to develop cool projects and make them real who aren't interested in turning into business owners. Saying "Don't start Alphabet Inc." and "Don't start Google the search engine" are very different things.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by eanzenberg on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:57AM (#19338654)
Awesome, upvoted for more visibility. Who needs advancements in medicine, tech, science? Not us! Everyone’s the same, everyone’s equal, everyone’s the lowest common denominator!!
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by BurningFrog on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:06AM (#19338736)
But Google (the search engine) is one of the greatest gifts to humanity that ever existed!

That some people made a few $100B on it is nothing compared to the value it's given humanity.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by geofft on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:07PM (#19339462)
Was it necessary to make $100B on it? Remember that Google started as a grad school project. Could it have continued and still been the same gift to the world? (Could it have been better?)