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Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by adventured on Monday March 04, 2019 @05:24AM (#19300169)
I'm waiting for the inevitable EU firewall that will ultimately be required to aggressively control all Internet usage for anyone in the EU.

It can end no other way than that. Particularly as these draconian regulations continue to get worse. How else will they enforce these policies against foreign entities that can trivially ignore them while still serving EU users? They have to put a stop to that, as it's an easy circumvention.

I can build a service in the US. Allow EU citizens to sign up. Entirely disregard most, if not all, EU laws. Monetize the huge US market first as a cash springboard. Acquire scale. Then turn on EU monetization when it's convenient to deal with the regulatory challenges there. There might be considerable retroactive fines involved for ignoring EU law over time while still taking on EU users (when you attempt to monetize the EU users, requiring business on the ground in the EU, that's when they'd land punches financially; the retroactive approach would be the solution the politicians would come up with as a desperate stop-gap against this approach); so what, I'm now a monopoly platform, I already won, hit me with your speeding ticket. If you make the speeding ticket too large, I'll demonetize the EU users, remove all business from the EU, ignore any fines, retain the EU users anyway to prevent competition, and keep going (come back later and see if I can lobby/bribe the EU politicians in some kind of fine settlement).

The sole means to stop that scenario - which is almost obnoxiously beneficial to furthering US dominance in platforms - is to lock down all Internet usage in the EU and dictate by permission what sites may be used. The tighter they get with Article 13 style regulations, the more likely they have to implement an EU firewall.

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by ovi256 on Monday March 04, 2019 @05:58AM (#19300315)
The scenario you described, unfortunately, makes too much sense.

Furthermore, I think this type of legislative arbitrage has already been in play, for the current compliance requirements. It sometimes works the other way around too, and I'd say Spotify was a succesful play that bypassed the negative US climate for media streaming startups, left by Napster.

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by hvidgaard on Monday March 04, 2019 @07:01AM (#19300587)
There is other ways to curb that though. I doubt the current POTUS is willing to play ball, but a future one might sign a mutually beneficial agreement that enables the courts of the EU to go after US based companies for things like taxes and fines, and visa versa, for a small well defined set of things. I think this is just as much a possibility since the internet is truly international and require international corporation.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by StavrosK on Monday March 04, 2019 @06:14AM (#19300398)
Which draconian regulations continue to get worse? I'm only aware of article 13, which hasn't passed yet.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by Mirioron on Monday March 04, 2019 @09:25AM (#19301439)
GDPR. It has some good parts, but a lot of bad in it as well.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by StavrosK on Monday March 04, 2019 @09:39AM (#19301556)
You're going to be searching for a long time to find a piece of legislation that only has good parts in it. The GDPR is overwhelmingly positive, and a massive step towards ensuring privacy online.

In my opinion, it has been pretty overwhelmingly a net positive, whereas article 13 is a clusterfuck that made me come up with a Cloudflare rule to block EU visitors from accessing sites (and yes, that includes myself):

https://twitter.com/Stavros/status/1100799044862033922

If anyone from Cloudflare is reading this, can we get a "redirect" firewall rule so I can point the visitors to something like "you can't access that site because the politicians you voted for are morons"?

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by Mirioron on Monday March 04, 2019 @02:33PM (#19304479)
I don't need a legislation to only have good parts in it, but I do want it to do more good than bad. GDPR does not do that. The harm it causes for internet businesses in the EU in the long term is going to be too much. It's already making EU companies less competitive[1] and it'll become worse as time goes on.

[1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3278912

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by StavrosK on Monday March 04, 2019 @04:13PM (#19305573)
Yes, all regulation makes companies less competitive than unregulated companies. That's why you regulate everyone.

Whats the harm of the GDPR?

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by Mirioron on Monday March 04, 2019 @08:40PM (#19307413)
Less competitive companies means that we won't have these types companies in the EU. We are already doing very poorly when it comes to anything related to computer technology and this will make it even worse.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by StavrosK on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @05:08AM (#19309494)
The GDPR is pretty sane and not very hard to comply with, unless you're being scummy. I'd rather not have scummy companies, even if that means we won't be competitive.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by L_226 on Monday March 04, 2019 @07:03AM (#19300601)
To implement an internet 'firewall' in the EU first they will first have to come up with a less contentious term than firewall. Too many negative connotations re. China and authoritarianism. Even non-tech people in the EU would get riled up about any EU firewall.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by Mirioron on Monday March 04, 2019 @09:28AM (#19301470)
EU politicians are experts at rebranding stuff like this. Just look at the article 13 discussion. They started out with upload filters, but when people criticized that they changed the wording so that it doesn't say upload filters, but it will still bring upload filters. Or look at Macron. He's railing against nationalism while instituting national service for 16 year olds "so they can learn to be more involved in society" and mandates French flags in classrooms.

EU politicians love rewording things and pretending that they're different.

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by m_fayer on Monday March 04, 2019 @11:03AM (#19302232)
Don't get why this is getting voted down. This scenario is on the gloomy side, but also insightful and a little too plausible for comfort.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by AnonymousPlanet on Monday March 04, 2019 @08:30AM (#19301037)
I think it's going to be more like a reverse firewall, so to say: non-EU companies geo blocking IP addresses of EU origin. This is already happening because of the GDPR. We might lose access to sites like Reddit and maybe even GitHub from inside the EU. I don't think the parties pushing for this legislation are fully aware of how deeply this might impact the technology sector, directly and especially indirectly.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by raverbashing on Monday March 04, 2019 @12:11PM (#19302844)
Github is (thankfully) excepted
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by yorwba on Monday March 04, 2019 @06:04AM (#19300352)
This "EU firewall" already exists. If a website violates European law but is hosted in a foreign country, ISPs may be ordered to block access to it. The US has a similar system in place, I believe.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by pluma on Monday March 04, 2019 @06:04AM (#19300349)
What makes you think this would be even remotely reasonable to conclude?

The Great Firewall exists to prevent Chinese citizens from accessing politically subversive content. The only EU equivalent I can think of is Germany blacklisting certain illegal content providers (i.e. nazis and child porn) that can't easily be shut down.

The reason access to child porn (or marketplaces for illegal substances) is prohibited is that possession and distribution is illegal and therefore even mere use of the services may constitute a crime (even if users don't distribute the illegal goods themselves).

The reason access to nazi sites is disrupted is that these sites are actively inciting racial hatred, holocaust denialism etc. So if you want to make a Great Firewall analogy this is probably the closest equivalent.

The GDPR specifically defines human rights and a mechanism to enforce those for EU residents (i.e. reporting violations to supervising data protection agencies which may use fines when the violator refuses to comply or acts too maliciously). Blocking those sites wouldn't make sense as the users aren't doing anything wrong by accessing those sites (it's the sites that are abusing the users).

The copyright reform also doesn't really target users -- article 13 just eliminates the safe harbor provision that allows file sharing services to distance themselves from the content they host. Access to those sites is not illegal and access to illegally hosted content is treated no differently in the EU than in the US.

In other words, aside from the usual anti-consumerist fearmongering about the GDPR your argument could have been made equally well when the US started shutting down the initial wave of file sharing services (from Napster all the way to MEGA). But instead it turned out to be more profitable to just sue people on a case by case basis.

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by pluma on Monday March 04, 2019 @06:15AM (#19300399)
The sheer irony of hearing people get their tinfoil hats in a bunch over the inevitability of an EU firewall because of a copyright reform that neatly dovetails the copyright overreach the US has tried to push in Europe for decades just because this time it's European newspaper publishers instead of RIAA and MPAA is physically painful to me at this point.
Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by YorkshireSeason on Monday March 04, 2019 @06:48AM (#19300538)
Are you not displaying Whataboutism / Tu Quoque here?

How is it relevant for the question whether the EU will need / institute filters that the US as a disagreeable copy-right system?

Re:German Data Privacy Commissioner Says Article 13 Inevitab... by pluma on Monday March 04, 2019 @07:17PM (#19307013)
Citing irrelevant logical fallacies is not an argument. Also way to "move the goalposts" (see? I can do it too). It's relevant to the alleged inevitability of a Chinese-style firewall in the EU.

If it wasn't inevitable in the US and if it wasn't inevitable when it was only RIAA/MPAA enforcing copyright, what is different this time?

Article 13 restricts the safe harbor provision to sites using upload filters (or sites that are explicitly exempt). There is no logical progression from that to a Great Firewall that wouldn't also have been present in US enforcement of copyright against Napster, The Pirate Bay, MEGA etc.

The GDPR (even if most neo-libs here think it's evil incarnate) is entirely orthogonal to literal censorship.

As I said, the closest thing would be the blocking (in Germany, not the EU) of nazi propaganda and extremely illegal content (read: child abuse) -- which have nothing to do with the recent EU legislations and are therefore an entirely separate discussion to be had.

Maybe the UK's "opt-out" modesty filter also falls in this category but as Theresa May is still happy to point out, the UK is leaving the EU, so it's hardly a good reference point for the future of EU legislation.

So if none of these things uniquely point to a future of Chinese-style censorship in the EU, what other than American Exceptionalism makes the current situation different from all the other situations in which we did not end up with said Great Firewall of Europe?

Article 13 is bad. Upload filters are bad. But please educate me how making unsubstantiated claims about how the EU is basically already China is supposed to be contributing to a healthy discussion but providing and then dismantling the obvious arguments OP chose to omit is somehow fallacious and irrelevant?