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Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by neonhat on Thursday February 21, 2019 @12:55PM (#19218912)
Oh my God... That user interface is trash. It's so laggy!
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by com2kid on Thursday February 21, 2019 @02:01PM (#19219580)
As someone who designed a UI graphics stack almost from scratch, making a non-laggy UI has to be done from day 1, working with the EE's all the way up to the top most software stack.

It is hard, and any misteps along the way can doom everything. A single bus without enough bandwidth, not reserving enough CPU time for UI code, to not ensuring end to end performance of the touch system, any mistake and the UI will be sub-par.

The UX also needs to be informed by the hardware capabilities. Even simple things like whitespace around elements being scrolled can reduce HW load.

Honestly the animations don't look too bad, their touch layer however, it looks rather questionable. Doing touch right is a difficult task, it has taken modern smartphone platforms years to get latency down to where it is just barely visible. Now days early gesture recognition involves some amount of ML training that will a touch gesture recognizer that runs on the device, the recognizer is customized per model of touch panel/sensors. (Alternatively, one piece chips that do all of this for you exist, popping out already recognized gestures, they may or may not give better results, I haven't poked around in this space for a few years.)

On top of that, the touch panel needs to be running at a high enough refresh rate, and the entire UI needs to prioritize touch events over almost everything else! Audio Output > Video Playback > Touch Events == UI Updates > Rest of the world

Last system I worked on, touch events could be delivered to the UI up until the moment painting started, painting was capped at ~20ms (IIRC), running at 30fps.

The worst edge case saw 2 frames of latency before the UI responded. Average was around 1 frame of latency.

The other thing I'd have recommended they do for a v1 product is v-sync at 30FPS, and base everything off of that. A smooth 30fps is better than dropping frames at 60fps.

Treat it like a video game, you have a CPU budget in which everything must get done. The rest of the system must be running at a low enough CPU load that the render target can be hit every single frame.

But again, this all has to be started at day 1.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by jancsika on Thursday February 21, 2019 @03:09PM (#19220119)
They didn't start at day 1 so here they are.

Wrt scrolling-- could they queue the repaints until the scroll reaches its final destination?

I could live with a phone that reacts "instantly" and scrolls with the animation I expect while showing me transient "placeholder" content.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by com2kid on Thursday February 21, 2019 @03:40PM (#19220375)
If you remember early phone browsers, they did the checkerboard scroll thing.

Giving instant feedback to users is crucial. The repaint of content can wait!

The pull down gesture in the video looks like it triggers on touch up. Reminds me of the first gesture handling system I ever wrote. :)

I gave up on it and let someone who knew what they were doing rewrite it from scratch!

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by solarkraft on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:04PM (#19221483)
Right after the checkerboard (or from the start with Apple) came the rasterized content. That worked (and still works) pretty well.
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by simias on Thursday February 21, 2019 @01:10PM (#19219051)
I'm sure the amount of work that went into it must be huge (creating something like that from scratch is indeed a daunting task) but I wonder if this video really does them any service, your average human being is just going to see a crappy and laggy interface that will remind them of bootleg smartphones from 10 years ago.

On the technical side of things I wonder if the lag is due to the lack of hardware acceleration or if it's because of a very unoptimized early build. If it's the former it'll fix itself when they integrate the GPU, if it's the latter then it's slightly more worrying from a code quality perspective.

Beyond that the interface looks like pre-alpha status (most of the widgets look like placeholders, glitches everywhere etc...) and they want to ship that in 6 months? I hope that early PureOS adopters are ready for a very rough launch, this is going to be quite a ride...

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by whalesalad on Thursday February 21, 2019 @01:42PM (#19219392)
This will be the downfall of this device. The kind of work required to provide a UI experience that even remotely resembles that of modern smartphones is a monumental task. It's one of the reasons desktop linux lags so far behind: the folks who have the time, interest and ability to do this work are not interested in using the platform.
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by kabacha on Friday February 22, 2019 @12:32AM (#19223356)
> It's one of the reasons desktop linux lags so far behind

Umm, what? Linux desktop is considered by far to be the most efficient and responsive desktop user interfaces there are. We have DEs that run on 10 year old hardware with no delay and even tilling window managers that are as efficient as you could ever get with todays hardware.

Sure they are not average Joe friendly but to attack it's efficiency and responsiveness is preposterous.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by vgoh1 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @01:59PM (#19219564)
If they are smart, they will have their margins adjusted to support a niche device. There are a few people (including myself) that are willing to sacrifice a beautiful UI for all the good things that go along with a user-respecting OS.

Also, they have a lot of time. I have made a few UI's myself back in the DOS days, before they were always readily available. First I would make it work, then I would make it look good.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by linuxftw on Thursday February 21, 2019 @04:00PM (#19220536)
> It's one of the reasons desktop linux lags so far behind

Behind what? I've been a daily linux user for the last decade or so, I've always felt the desktop experience was superior to to Windows and Mac. At least Gnome 2/3 has been.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by mruts on Thursday February 21, 2019 @03:21PM (#19220226)
I agree that the device looks like trash. But what's wrong with desktop linux? We have compositors, hardware acceleration from nvidia and AMD, and WMs that are just as good, if not better, than windows. What more could you want?
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by na85 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:55PM (#19222143)
>What more could you want?

Consistent UI, consistent configuration schemes, working suspend-resume, reliable WiFi, reliable auto mount of USB storage, and easy file sharing over LAN for starters.

None of these things was I able to achieve on my ThinkPad even 3 years ago when I last gave Linux a try.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by mruts on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:51PM (#19222438)
I mean, I’ve been using ThinkPads for years and have always ran Linux on them, and personally haven’t had any problems with them. ACPI, touchpad, screen, audio buttons, all worked out of the box or were just a few package installs away.I don’t like auto-mounting of drives, but I know it’s pretty easy to setup with hotplug. WiFi drivers are very good at this point, supporting pretty much any WiFi cards in any laptops. File sharing over LAN can easily done with Samba or SSHFS.

Linux has pretty good drivers at this point, and in my experience, often better and more complete than Windows.

Not saying you’re lying or incompetent or anything, but I do think you had a very atypical. Maybe you’re not familiar with Linux? Not trying to put you down, but maybe I find that Linux works Because I’ve been using it for over 15 years at this point.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by na85 on Friday February 22, 2019 @12:02AM (#19223263)
I'm sure I could have got most of those things working by fiddling with fuse or xorg.conf or some other silliness but I don't count that as "working".

The number of times I've had network manager simply refuse to connect after opening the laptop lid makes me think we're just living in parallel universes.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by mruts on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:08AM (#19225394)
I don’t use a network manager, and I don’t run a DE, I just have a simple window manager and the command line. Btw, I use Arch Linux which is of much higher quality than Ubuntu or whatever.
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by doublepg23 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:29PM (#19222321)
If we were talking about OpenBSD I would agree with you, but I can promise you all those are functional across many laptops and desktops I've used.

> Consistent UI, consistent configuration schemes

Have you used Windows?

> easy file sharing over LAN

Every install of Ubuntu for years has come with a "public" folder for easy LAN sharing (Samba). https://xkcd.com/949/

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by chmln on Friday February 22, 2019 @11:26PM (#19231629)
> It's one of the reasons desktop linux lags so far behind

You really can' fault desktop linux at least performance-wise. I have ~3ms input latency in vim on xterm. Good luck beating that on windows, or even a mac.

The reason linux on desktop lags behind is simple - 99% of desktops and laptops come pre-installed with either windows or macos.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by ams6110 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:22PM (#19221968)
Personally, I couldn't care less about animation. Remember when Windows used to only show a frame when you were dragging a window around or resizing it? That was fine.

The lag in that video is about the same as my cheap Moto G phone. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just want a phone that I can trust isn't spying on me 24x7.

Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by Digital-Citizen on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:29PM (#19222324)
I agree; I think this thread and a couple similar threads (basically repeating the same objection) are vastly overrated. Not spying + hardware and software under user control is far more important than whatever someone considers lagging video or anything that animates, particularly for a device people insist on calling "phones". I might prefer no animated GUI.
Re:Librem 5 Smartphone: Massive Progress, Exact CPU Selected... by justinjlynn on Thursday February 21, 2019 @01:03PM (#19218976)
Yes. They were quite clear that the software stack is pre-beta quality at best.