News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by dontbenebby on Friday February 15, 2019 @12:31PM (#19172820)
Your comment reminds me of a recent article I read (on HN iirc but can't find the comment thread):

https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/612947/pricing...

>Researchers at the University of Bologna in Italy created two simple reinforcement-learning-based pricing algorithms and set them loose in a controlled environment. They discovered that the two completely autonomous algorithms learned to respond to one another’s behavior and quickly pulled the price of goods above where it would have been had either operated alone.

>“What is most worrying is that the algorithms leave no trace of concerted action,” the researchers wrote. “They learn to collude purely by trial and error, with no prior knowledge of the environment in which they operate, without communicating with one another, and without being specifically designed or instructed to collude.” This risks driving up the price of goods and ultimately harming consumers.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that two companies could arrive at such a move without conscious collusion. I also don't think it should be treated differently.

Long term, I think Visa an MC could shoot themselves in the foot. Merchants are now allowed to charge fees for using CCs IIRC in at least some areas.

You could easily end up with a situation like Europe where people mostly use debit cards for in person purchases since the processing fees are lower.

Consumers lose the protection of a buffer from their bank account, issuers lose out on revenue. Not a good outcome IMHO.

Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by nsedlet on Friday February 15, 2019 @03:54PM (#19174620)
There was this thread from awhile ago: "Cartels Are an Emergent Phenomenon, Say Complexity Theorists" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3494224
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by jfoster on Friday February 15, 2019 @12:37PM (#19172878)
Of course. They also share most of their customers. Their business model is the same. A lot of their metrics probably trend similarly. Each would definitely know what the other is up to without talking directly.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by etrautmann on Friday February 15, 2019 @12:50PM (#19173003)
Is this essentially a variant of the "tit for tat" strategy in an iterated prisoner's dilemma? It seems analogous
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by will_brown on Friday February 15, 2019 @01:39PM (#19173489)
The prisoners dilemma is ultimately just a demonstration of game theory.

That is there is more than you win/I lose or I win/you lose but there is win/win.

It’s definately conceivable two algorithms or two ai would be capable of concluding the same. In fact it may be even easier because what’s the actual dilemma/self interest of such a system without the selfishness of human nature?

Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by roywiggins on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:24PM (#19173889)
Why would you intentionally operate an AI that wasn't as selfish as possible?
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by will_brown on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:26PM (#19173910)
Because game theory/prisoners dilemma/the red black game (whatever you want to call it) suggests you would get a better outcome otherwise.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by 8note on Friday February 15, 2019 @03:17PM (#19174318)
if you ruin your only competitor, the antitrust folks will come after you
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by pas on Saturday February 16, 2019 @07:02AM (#19178243)
Nah, they still can come after you if you prevent new firms to enter the market. (But if you just do the usual regulatory capture the gov. will be just happy for you, as you gave them a lot of busywork for nothing.)
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by raverbashing on Friday February 15, 2019 @03:29PM (#19174423)
My pet peeve is how "The Prisoner's dilemma" is the most commonly used example of game theory while being one of the worse examples (because it involves no information exchange and a skewed payback)
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by Marsymars on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:40PM (#19174034)
Also tragedy of the commons.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by benologist on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:06PM (#19173718)
What do European banks do when debit card fraud occurs?
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by webmobdev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:38AM (#19178064)
India probably has the same number of users (or maybe more) of debit card users as the whole of Europe.

In India, banks have transferred the liability of debit card frauds directly to the card holder.

As far as they are concerned, the cards have EMV chips, and you have to provide a PIN to use the card on every transaction (merchant or ATM). Further, everytime a transaction occurs, the user gets an email and SMS message on their mobile informing them of the same. So ultimately it is presumed to be your fault if your debit card is "misused" in any manner.

If you lose your card or suspect fraud, you can always block it through your online net banking account or by calling the bank.

In fact, there was recently an interesting and controversial indian court case and ruling on debit card usage -

A spouse used his wife's card at an ATM to try and withdraw money to pay her medical bills (she had just given birth). The transaction failed (i.e. he didn't get the money) but the amount was debited from the account. They informed the bank and the bank told them that there might be an issue with the ATM and in such cases the amount would be credited back to the account in 24-48 hours. When that didn't happen, they filed further complaints with the bank and the ATM's CCTV footage confirmed that the ATM had not disbursed the money. But since the footage also showed the spouse using the card, and not the card holder, they closed the case stating that since debit card PIN has been shared, the bank is not liable as debit cards are non-transferable. After appealing in various forums, and finally in court, even the court sided with the bank. They further added that if the account holder wanted her husband to withdraw money, she should have given him a self-cheque for the amount, and not her debit card.

Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by CydeWeys on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:24PM (#19173891)
European banks use chip and PIN cards which are much less susceptible to fraud. So they're fine.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by webmobdev on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:36AM (#19178063)
India probably has the same number of users (or maybe more) of debit card users as the whole of Europe.

In India, banks have transferred the liability of debit card frauds directly to the card holder. As far as they are concerned, the cards have EMV chips, and you have to provide a PIN to use the card on every transaction (merchant or ATM). Further, everytime a transaction occurs, the user gets an email and SMS message on their mobile informing them of the same. So ultimately it is presumed to be your fault if your debit card is "misused" in any manner.

In fact, there was recently an interesting and controversial indian court case and ruling on debit card usage -

A spouse used his wife's card at an ATM to try and withdraw money to pay her medical bills (she had just given birth). The transaction failed (i.e. he didn't get the money) but the amount was debited from the account. They informed the bank and the bank told them that there might be an issue with the ATM and in such cases the amount would be credited back to the account in 24-48 hours. When that didn't they filed a complaint, and the ATM's CCTV footage confirmed that the ATM had not disbursed the money. But since the footage also showed the spouse using the card, and not the card holder, they closed the case stating that since debit card PIN has been shared, the bank is not liable as debit cards are non-transferable. After appealing in various forums, and finally in court, even the court sided with the bank. They further added that if the account holder wanted her husband to withdraw money, she should have given him a self-cheque for the amount, and not her debit card.

Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by ars on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:31PM (#19174913)
For certain definitions of fine. If fraud does happen the consumer is usually not believed, because of course, fraud does not happen.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by felipelemos on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:35PM (#19173992)
And additionally my bank have a block system, I believe around 24/48h between freeze the money and finally withdraw it from my account.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by conductr on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:32PM (#19173964)
Am I wrong to assume most fraud is online? How does Europe deal with big data breaches and the like?
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by CydeWeys on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:35PM (#19173993)
2-factor auth is typically mandatory when using a chip and PIN card to buy things online. Rather than physically entering the PIN on a keypad, you're doing something through a flow using your user account with the bank. So not only would the random retailer need to be compromised, but the bank would have to be as well.
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by felipelemos on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:37PM (#19174015)
In that case what is the difference between credit and debit usage?
Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by jmiserez on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:39AM (#19177914)
In practice, here in Europe credit cards are often worse because the seller can add additional charges after the transaction using just the CC number (even with chip+pin CCs) whereas this is impossible with a chip+pin debit card.

And the CC "protection policies" aren't that useful here, in my experience it's near impossible to do a successful chargeback and there are few cards with high cashback.

Re:Visa, Mastercard mull increasing fees for processing tran... by benologist on Friday February 15, 2019 @02:42PM (#19174053)
Arbitrary "protection" policies anyone can implement, powered by Visa and Mastercard?