Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of when I read that everyone has 8 hours a day of "me" time. Nope, no we don't.

630a - 8a: get myself ready, get kids ready

8a - 630p: commute and work (yes, the author does say she eliminated her commute, but this isn't feasible for everyone)

630p - 8p: dinner, get kids to bed

8p - ~9p: dishes, general cleanup, pay bills, etc...things most adults have to do to live

9p - 1030p: 1.5 hours of "me" time if we're going for 8 hours of sleep...no, more like...

9p - 12a: really the only window I have to live. often spent doing more work and really, usually too brain dead to start a side project. again, adulting and parenting are hard and energy intensive. Netflix sounds really good at this point.

1030p - 630a: 8 hours of sleep (haha - i'm really trying to live somewhat of a life so 1130/12 is a more regular bedtime)

I've been considering the 10p bedtime/5a wake up so I can do side projects in the morning, but this still only adds 1.5 hours of time for a total of 3 hours a day.

>I've been considering the 10p bedtime/5a wake up so I can do side projects in the morning, but this still only adds 1.5 hours of time for a total of 3 hours a day.

Do it.

3 hours per day, 5 days a week for an entire year is 720 hours. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And it's not like you need to always do it. Try it out, see if it is for you, worst case you cross the idea off your list.

My only important personal goal this year is to spend 500 hours working on personal goals. Pretty conservative pace (1 hour on 4 weekdays and 6 hours on the weekend), but sticking to anything consistently for an entire year would be a huge personal achievement.

This is awesome. A lot can be accomplished with 500 hours and yes, perhaps the best achievement is sticking to that goal consistently.

Irony of ironies, I'm actually coming to understand the importance of having "tickets", a backlog, and revisiting progress on a bi-weekly basis (sprints)

On the flipside, the single best thing you can do for your mental health and quality of life is to get more sleep.

Yes, exactly. Life is a marathon and if you put in consistent effort you'll make it to the "finish line". Perhaps slower than some others who had more time to move more quickly or with significant breaks, but you’ll get there.

Maybe a polarizing opinion, but if you put yourself in a box that “doesn’t have enough time” just because you have a commute, are a parent, [insert other excuse here], then it’s the equivalent of sitting at the start line and watching everyone, even the walkers, tread ahead. It's okay if that's what you want, but it is a choice.

Well said, live is a marathon not a sprint.

That's pretty much how my schedule works out too. The only thing is, by the time I get my kids to bed around 9 or so, I'm so exhausted, mentally and physically, that investing time in my side business is just not gonna happen.

I would guess in an average week, I have about 5 quality hours where I do not have an obligation to someone or something else and am able to spend it as I see fit.

That's pretty close to my routine as well, and by the end of the day I was a lot of the time too tired to put much (if any) effort into my side project.

As a New Years Resolution, I've been getting up at 5:30 each morning to get 1.5 hours to do my own thing in the mornings, and so far it's been going well. I would still like more time, but constantly getting small amounts done is a great motivator.

I also start a new job in a few weeks that is 4 days a week so I can spend a full day each week on my project. I'll take a small financial hit, but I'm hoping that will be enough to get something worth shipping out the door. If it all goes up in flames, I can always go back to full time without having risked too much.

Thats a more realistic breakdown. So thinking out loud, this means that maybe one needs to think and figure out the "what to do" ahead of time, while during other mundane activities, to the point of very clear tasks. And then do the tasks during the 1.5 "me" time.

Just a suggestion. It has worked for me before, but I am with you in general. Most days in the 1.5 hr "me" time that I have, Netflix/Hulu on the couch/chair with an IPA sounds pretty great at that point :)

I have a very similar schedule. I use 5am to 630pm to work on my side project. Sure, I only get 1.5 hours a day but it works for me, and over the past 4 years I've made enough progress to keep me happy. My primary motivator is the joy of working on my own idea, but hope to launch this in the next 2 years. (I'm working on an app.)

This is my schedule exactly. Cutting coffee made it so much easier to just crash out at 10, which shifts “me” time to the morning when I’m more in the mood to be productive.

Outsource some of the work you do while you work and commute. Say, outsource 3-4 hours a day, pick up 1-2 hours as you can. Then your project moves 4-6 hrs a day. I do this, using my income for someone else to build by muse.

That's what I do as well. My most productive hours are in the morning, so that's why I give them to my personal-job rather than my professional-job.

I'm single and don't have kids and it still doesn't apply. I have to commute, shower, cook, buy groceries, clean etc.

I'm all about self improvement, side-projects, etc, but his numbers start with the bullshit assumption that someone who spends 8 hours at work is instantly free as soon as the clock strikes 5.

>start with the bullshit assumption that someone who spends 8 hours at work is instantly free as soon as the clock strikes 5

This is one of the things I noticed as well. About a year ago I started commuting via commuter rail (Boston), and my side project productivity sky rocketed.

I'm guaranteed a seat, and room to put my laptop on my lap for two 1 hour intervals, 5 days a week.

This is an option not many people have, especially in the US.

Previously I've commuted by driving (obviously can't get much coding done then), and subway (too crowded to pull out a laptop). By the time I got home, I'd have already worked at least 8 hours, and spent 2 miserable hours commuting. I was tired, hungry, and hadn't gotten any side project work done.

Now at least I can get 2 good hours in every day, and that productivity momentum sometimes will carry in to the evening now as well, since I'm already in the thick-of-it when I get home. But even if it doesn't I'm working 10 hours/week on something I enjoy, and can easily see steady progress in it. It doesn't even matter how much time I'm able to make for myself when at home now.

> About a year ago I started commuting via commuter rail (Boston), and my side project productivity sky rocketed. > > I'm guaranteed a seat, and room to put my laptop on my lap for two 1 hour intervals, 5 days a week.

> This is an option not many people have, especially in the US.

Yeah. Those of in the Bay Area are stuck with CalTrain. You're not guaranteed a train (passengers are regularly "bumped", or denied boarding and told to wait for the next train, particularly bikers), let alone a seat; the trains are just incredibly oversubscribed / underprovisioned.

Also, IIRC, doesn't the MBTA commuter rail also offer free WiFi? CalTrain does not, and cell reception along the CalTrain corridor is flaky at best and outright terrible in some spots (San Antonio — Palo Alto…)

(The T, and the commuter rail, are compartively well run, IMO, and one of, if not the best, public transit systems in the nation.)

Does MA have anything close to CA's legal requirements that employers don't own employee's work when done on their own time with their own equipment?[1] (I.e., does your employer require you to sell your soul to them?)

[1]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Way true. I wrote the second half of my novel on my iPhone on the train to and from work. (First half written during the mandatory three month paid “garden leave” when I resigned before I could start the second job).

Wow - I can barely write an email or short reply such as this on my iPhone. Respect.

Similarly, I thought I would be okay commuting by car for a bigger paycheck. A company matched my spoiled demands, and I got a nice fat paycheck.

But still sitting in traffic ~2 hours a day was completely non-monetizable for me, and at the time monetization potential was important to me and this was a total waste.

Now of course, people in the bay area were telling me "wow a 40 minute commute you are so lucky", as many do 1.5-3 hour commutes one way, or they work longer than 8 hours to avoid traffic - for the same salary they would get if they worked less than 8 hours/day for these companies.

But I don't compare myself to them, to the average, its a non-factor for my goals, and I do have luxury of not being subscribed to a commute and was able to quickly remedy the situation. At the expense of no longer working at that job at that high salary.

You could interpret that, though, to mean building the lifestyle so that either your commute is easier, a job that you can control the hours better, or simpler living. For example, if you're riding commuter rail to work, that could potentially free up some time to maybe plan things, etc...

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of jobs/careers that this type of thinking wouldn't work at, but to counter that, there's also plenty more where it would.

But I agree with the sentiment. Maybe more like four hours/day, assuming you've simplified the rest of your life.

> I'm single and don't have kids and it still doesn't apply. I have to commute, shower, cook, buy groceries, clean etc.

Not once were you told during the article that all eight hours have to be dedicated to working, i.e. wake and grab your laptop and start hacking.

Obviously the author is more intelligent than that and understands people need to poo, get ill, or sometimes want to hit the cinema. That's made clear in the article also.

I think your conclusion misses the point that you're meant to take that eight hours and use what you can of it to focus on goals. That's why Steph points out that just one hour of work towards a goal over 365 days has a compounding, exponential result.

It's also not a solution for everyone. Take it or leave it.

You might consider this: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/03/20/running-a-software-busi...

> his numbers

Her. Not just men are becoming makers. :)

WTF is this downvoted for? Right up top of the article it explicitly calls out that the author is a woman, yet someone here can’t even be arsed to get it right? Then the person who calls it out is downvoted?!

Shame, HN.

Thank you.

Or not having a relationship or even much of a social life. I've gone through periods when I was single, spent much of my "me time" working on side projects, some of which shipped and made a little money and another one that got funded. Both OP and one of your replies say this is a "choice", which is true. You can have kids and choose to try to spend less time with them if you are not their primary caregiver. You can not spend time commuting or work on side projects during commute if you aren't driving if you choose and get the right job, etc. I think at some point for most people spending time with your kids or partner is more value than fucking around with side projects and "trying to start a business" that doesn't go anywhere. Sometimes you have to build something, and I think in that case you can figure out a way to do it, but just as often its aimlessly building vague ideas that don't ship or go anywhere. Burn out and mental fatigue are also real risks if you push this too far. Although side projects are fun, essentially working two or one and a half jobs for a long period of time (work, eat, work, sleep, repeat) with no real down time or social life will probably burn you out.

edit: That said, I still suggest you don't quit your day job. With the caveat of you should quit your day job if you have savings\runway\revenue\funding to do so, and you'll be ok with your project going nowhere and returning back to a regular day job after that runway expires.

People who choose to have kids are making a commitment to a long-term maker project, so that makes sense.

Kids are tiny adults in progress, not your personal maker project. They should be afforded as much autonomy as possible, where your only role is to keep them safe and healthy until they can reach an age where they can do so themselves. If anything it's more like having an employer that you do work for free, or even out of your own pocket.

Keeping them safe and healthy takes time. But, there are other things too. Teaching them to be good people, spending time with them to provide them with company and love (their friends aren't available round the clock). Bring up children is like being a small business owner. You nurture them so that they become solid, independent people when they grow up. The ROI is not money, but happiness, which is the ultimate goal of money.

Kids vary dramatically in terms of what they need from parents. For some, a high degree of autonomy is appropriate. For others, very much not so.

> They should be afforded as much autonomy as possible, where your only role is to keep them safe and healthy until they can reach an age where they can do so themselves.

You don't believe in upbringing?

I don’t see how what they propose is contrary to an upbringing. The goal of parenting is to raise a self-sufficient adult. The sooner you empower them to be autonomous the better they will be.

Even adults need mentors

What I said doesn't contradict what you said.

Sure, which is good information - if you want to keep that "extra 8 hours," don't have kids.

But surely the basic principles of organization and removing distraction can also be applied to those with kids? Kids are time consuming but not all-consuming, I suppose unless you don't have a partner to help out.

They're not all-consuming, but they provide enough distraction that it's difficult to have long periods of focus to make things.

Kids are a pretty big thing you make yourself with 1 cofounder and a couple team members tbh. Few other maker projects last as long. 18 years is a lot to invest in an MVP

Yeah, I get at most 5 hrs/day of "me time", and I'm just a 20 minute drive from my office with heavy traffic. 5 minutes if the roads are clear. Granted, I spend hours on HN, reading articles, sometimes even short books, and sneak a YT video every once in a while during work. I get paid like crap for not so trivial work, so might as well use that time to strive for something better, lol.

And not having a commute or the obligation to do groceries, etc. No mental fatigue, etc.

No. You can have kids and still create things, even new businesses. It really is about choice, and good time management. Too often people don't have enough time, but when you really look at what they do, you see where they do have enough time, where they really do make choices. I say this having founded a startup before I was married, and having started a business after having kids, 15 years apart.

It's about the choices you make.

I think throwaway-1283 isn't necessarily wrong, the author herself said as much -- she chose to forego a relationship for now and focus on side projects. Kids take even more time than just a relationship.

Not as a challenge to you, but just out of curiosity, how old were your kids when you started the latter business? I have an infant now and it's hard to imagine having time at all to do anything outside of work. There just isn't that sort of time. When I was "just" in a relationship or married, I didn't have any problems putting time and energy into both founding a startup and even engage in side projects (even as I work on my startup). Having a baby is a whole new story. I imagine things will get better as kid grows older -- probably better at school age, and then even better at high school/college age. But it'll be a long time. Maybe 15 years later like you said.

Their must-have time demands and wrecking-your-house tendencies don't seem to start to trend significantly downward until age 5 or so. Believe it or not they get much worse before they get better on those fronts, after the infant stage. Sleeping-through-the-night (call it 3 to 6 months) through ~18 months is a pretty great time. 18m to ~4yrs, depending on the kid, is... hellish.

I got a lot of reading done when my kids were infants. Way more than I do now, which is almost none. There's a good long span when you can just read them whatever, since they don't know WTF is going on anyway. Great time to knock a few titles off your own to-read list (yes for the record I did also read them plenty of picture books and such).

> Not as a challenge to you, but just out of curiosity, how old were your kids when you started the latter business? I

After they started school. The wife started looking at turning a hobby into a business. A couple pivots along the journey, and it wasn't until last year that we hit on something solid (so about 4 years later, so obviously an "overnight" success). It's still a lot of work, and it's by no means guaranteed, but it's off to a great start.

It's also turning into something else we can build.

What does this require? A desire to make it happen. My wife is the one who deserves the credit. We are here because of her desire to build something. But it's that balance between kids in school and working after they go to bed, and still finding a way to balance work and life. Again, it comes down to choices.

One more minor note, both of our kids have autism, and one is non-verbal, so it's not like they are self-sufficient (the younger one is moreso).

And yes, having a baby is going to impact you right now. It's fine. Use this time to enjoy life. =)

My wife and I have a newborn too, and I'm working on both an open-source project and a potential business. Most of the time, after work, I come home and take care of the baby for a bit to give my wife some rest. I basically put the baby in a sling and go about my day. I read her a little book, and play with her for about an hour. But otherwise, the rest of that time I use to work on my projects.

Children are wonderful, but they do not need your constant, undivided attention. I actually think it's better right now with a newborn. Once she starts walking and crawling. She'll need more monitoring.

There is a spectrum of how engaged you are with your kids as a parent and it would be hard to have a full time job, a side job, and then also be a highly engaged parent.

Also I think it would be even more difficult as a mother.

You are 100% wrong. And your insult is obvious and not welcome here.

A few months ago we had a story here in HN claiming that parents spend more time with their kids now, or at least want to spend more time with them. Not to mention nowadays both parents take care of the kids - a few decades ago outside of dinner and going out on the weekend fathers didn't do much else. Maybe that's why you feel this way.

I have friends whose parents switched careers by studying or working late, and I know some junior developers who are parents who taught themselves to code. So obviously just because you have kids doesn't mean you can't do anything else with your free time. You just have to make choices with your time management, I guess. But I don't know, I don't have kids :-)

It's certainly possible, but as you say "You just have to make choices with your time management". You end up sacrificing what little free time you have to more work. If that's the most important thing to you then you do it, but for most it is not.

I only have one child. I get about 2.5 hours / day to myself (after his bed time, he's only five.) I could certainly spend that time programming, but at this point it's just not what I want to do. I'd rather learn something else or just be a lazy bum.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's all doable; my mother worked and went to law school with two children. But it's hard, and most people who say they want to do X but don't have time simply don't want to make the sacrifices doing X would require. People do the same with all sorts of things. Exercise is a big one. "No time" really means "I don't want to spend 30 minutes working out."

We all find time for the things that are important to us.

Or you can also outsource some of the work you do while you work and commute.Outsource 3-4 hours a day, pick up 2-4 hours if you can. Then your project moves 5-8 hrs a day. I do this, using my income for someone else to build by muse.

Yeah, an elephant in the room really. The post just implicitly assumes that.

Most things out of Silicon Valley seem to be based on that premise.