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Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by airstrike on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @01:53PM (#19098358)
> I have a crazy idea around this: End high school sooner.

I have an even crazier idea: subsidize education so much that every school is as good as the ones Zuckerberg and Gates attended.

Other than healthcare and law enforcement, everything else can be 100% privatized.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:08PM (#19098554)
> subsidize education so much that every school is as good as the ones Zuckerberg and Gates attended.

You won't get that. The truth is that parental involvement is at least if not more important than the sort of school they go to.

I would guess that if Zuckerberg and Gates had been forced to go to public school, they still would have done well due to parental involvement. On the other hand, if you took a child in a single parent home in which the parent works 2 jobs and struggles to pay bills and put them in the same school that Zuckerberg and Gates attended, I would bet that they would do worse than hypothetical Zuckerberg or Gates at a crappy school.

Part of the reason why private schools score higher is that they select for parents who 1) Care about education and 2) Are well off enough economically to afford it. You put a bunch of students like that together and in aggregate they are going to do well. On the other hand, if you have a school (with mandatory attendance) where a large portion of the students live in struggling households where concern for education is behind putting food on the table and a roof over head, the school is going to struggle, even if you had the best teachers in the world with a vast amount of teaching resources.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by zdragnar on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:38PM (#19099635)
This point gets brought up a lot, but it's focused on individual situations; peers influence kids as much as parents, if not moreso (especially when the single parent works multiple jobs).

If the preponderance of a community doesn't value education enough, or can't at least take the time to act on feedback from teachers about how their kids are doing, then you're just going to end up with a self-fulfilling prophesy of failure. On the one hand, you've got kids being made fun of for "acting white" when they try hard, and parents laying into teachers for daring to criticize their children who are acting out.

Money can't fix any of that, and it matters a whole hell of a lot less than parents who at least put in some effort. My best friend- who I first met in college- grew up in near-abject poverty, raised by a single parent who worked a lot. His parent made sure to drill into him the importance of trying hard in school, and what the other kids he tried to emulate were doing wrong (even to the point of having him join a hockey team instead of a basketball team to break him of living up- or rather down- to stereotypes).

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by crispyambulance on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:03PM (#19099918)

    > The truth is that parental involvement is at least if not more important than the sort of school they go to.
Sure, home-life makes a big difference, but there's a lot of kids for whom a solid education at a non-dysfunctional school would do wonders.

It doesn't even have to be private-school mastery-based education with a 6-1 student/teacher ratio to make a significant difference, nor do we need to use Zuckerberg/Gates or other unicorns as the role models here.

What would it take to reverse the downward spiral in public education? Teachers who are paid a decent wage and aren't overwhelmed with 40-1 or higher ratios, crumbling infrastructure and insane administrations. That's totally doable-- if our culture is worth a damn.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by sjg007 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:03PM (#19099925)
Well. I think a good school would provide a lot of resources. Sure some parents, especially the wealthy will provide those when they can but they may not even know about opportunities out there.

Some private schools offer scholarships and those have been shown to significantly help less well to do kids succeed. I think there's a private school in Oakland that does this.

I think, as a first order of business, we should have our schools providing 3 meals a day to the kids. That will help things tremendously.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by and-y1 on Thursday February 07, 2019 @05:19PM (#19109176)
I agree about parental involvement. My brother and I both went to a good (public) high school, but I attribute much of our intellectual curiosity to parents who 1) read a ton 2) read to us a ton 3) had books/newspapers/magazines around all the time. That was nurtured in us during high school and college, but was created well before then.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by airstrike on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:26PM (#19099493)
I'm willling to bet real money that Mark Zuckerberg's and Bill Gates' parents also went to great schools...
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by throwawaymath on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:36PM (#19099614)
You shouldn't make that bet. Zuckerberg's parents didn't attend Philips Exeter. Zuckerberg himself only transferred in.

But to the spirit of your point: yes, he did grow up in a household with two highly educated parents.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by tedajax on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @01:59PM (#19098427)
Or like, federal funding for public schools instead of this property tax funding which basically means the only good public schools are in affluent areas.

Privatization ruins lots more than just healthcare and law enforcement.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by jandrewrogers on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:42PM (#19098978)
One of the (many) reasons education funding is local is that the economics and requirements of education vary immensely with locale, and local funding and policy adapt to that reality. I've gone to extremely rural schools (it covered three counties and my class still only had ten kids), sketchy urban schools that were mostly non-white, and wealthy suburban schools. These all had wildly different economics and requirements that reflected their unique needs, constraints, and student populations. Some parts of the US deliver a high-quality education for very little money.

Of course, I went to school long enough ago that the individual schools had almost unlimited latitude to tailor the schools to local conditions and needs. The forced homogenization of how schools are operated over the intervening decades is at least partly responsible for the rapid increase in operating costs without any improvements in educational results.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by shaki-dora on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:47PM (#19099048)
So... It costs proportionally more to educate rich parents' kids? Why? Do they need to sit in Eames chairs to pay attention?
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by burfog on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:03PM (#19099256)
All the workers (teachers, bus drivers, janitors...) have to pay more for housing or commuting, so yes.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by asark on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:17PM (#19099389)
In my mid-sized Midwestern city, the worst schools pay their teachers the best by a long shot. The best schools pay at or under average.

They still have trouble finding teachers. Probably due to all the lock-downs due to credible threats of violence, being cursed at and threatened by 7-year-olds on a regular basis, that kind of thing.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by thatfrenchguy on Thursday February 07, 2019 @12:52PM (#19106886)
Send those kids out of their neighborhoods ? Mandatory school desegregation should be the norm.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by asark on Thursday February 07, 2019 @06:22PM (#19109702)
IIRC you're right, and bussing's one of the only actually-effective tools we've found for solving this problem—but it's also an incredibly-unpopular policy among a pretty large set of the population. Like, get-people-out-in-the-streets-rioting unpopular, if you kept at it.

For racist reasons, yes, but also because home prices have become a proxy filter for schools (filtering for kids whose parents are able and willing to pay inflated prices to send their kids to school with other kids whose parents are able and willing to pay inflated housing prices—it's a feedback loop).

The premium's a good 20-25% around these parts for safe-neighborhood-good-schools versus safe-neighborhood-mediocre-schools, so not nothing, and the entirety of many home buyers' equity early in their mortgage. Harder to compare with neighborhoods where the schools are outright bad since the houses there are usually in much worse shape and in high-crime areas, but one must assume the effect would be far stronger still, if one could find an all-else-being-equal comparison.

Still worth doing? Maybe, but if you just tell those middle and upper-middle class folks (actually rich people unaffected, as usual) to screw off and eat a loss you're gonna have some difficulty. And that's before racism even enters the picture, which of course it would.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by extrapickles on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:12PM (#19098623)
Some states try to redistribute a portion of the property taxes, but it typically gets seen as a piggy bank ripe for raiding to fund various pet projects of the state legislature.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by gumby on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:20PM (#19098720)
California does this. Seemed like a great idea. Instead the parents in Palo Alto band together to hire teacher's aides, add art programs, build the high school a theatre, all as "donations" (voluntary property taxes -- it all comes off your tax return you know!)

The neighborhood deltas got so bad that these donations themselves are pooled and spread around Palo Alto!

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by TheBeardKing on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:48PM (#19099067)
So what happens if you don't donate? Do you still get to reap the benefits if you live in the school zone?
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by gumby on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:00PM (#19099216)
Yes you do. People pay a lot of money to get into the Palo Alto Unified School District and some can't afford to donate. But there's apparently a lot of pressure to do so (according to my GF; my kid went to private schools).

But what this means is that the kids in, say, Lodi are still getting shafted even though the whole point of spreading the money around was to try to level the school spending difference between rich and poor areas.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by pathseeker on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @07:04PM (#19101574)
>that the kids in, say, Lodi are still getting shafted

So are the ones in a 200 person town in Alaska. What does proximity matter?

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by gumby on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @08:31PM (#19102100)
Because the point was to try to improve the educational opportunities for all the kids in California. California has nothing to do with school funding in Alaska.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by zozbot123 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:13PM (#19099349)
How are the other kids "getting shafted"? They're still getting more funding thanks to the property tax revenue being spread around. Do you think they should be envious of the kids in Palo Alto who are benefitting from the extra donation money, or what? I mean, it's one thing to advocate for more funding of all sorts of underserved educational opportunities, but this rhetoric of envy and misguided entitlement is just not very appealing, even from that POV.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by tfehring on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:31PM (#19100780)
> They're still getting more funding thanks to the property tax revenue being spread around.

More funding relative to what? Certainly not relative to the funding Palo Alto schools are getting.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:22PM (#19098750)
>privatization ruins lots more than just healthcare and law enforcement.

In my opinion we need more private law enforcement. Too many cops are spending too many man hours as glorified security guards and the downside is that they're expensive and we can't fire them, sue the employer or not renew the contract if they screw up.

There's no reason to have "real police" standing around at city hall or a sports event and the benefits are marginal at best. Just hire security guards. They are just as capable in those situations and have far less downsides. Same goes for directing traffic, don't waste money paying cops to do it.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by throwawaymath on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:33PM (#19099580)
This will never happen.

I went to a private high school in Westchester with a $20k/year tuition. My high school was significantly better than most. But it was still "only" good, not extraordinary.

The schools Gates and Zuckerberg attended have tuitions of $35k and $50k, respectively. They also have endowments larger than those of most universities, at $130 million and $1.2 billion respectively.

There simply isn't enough money to fulfill your proposal. Educational achievement is strongly positively correlated with wealth. Wealth attracts itself; it centralizes and consolidates around more wealth.

There are different things you could do to make most public high schools approximately as good as most private high schools. Stuyvesant is an exceptional public school in NYC; better than my own private high school, in my opinion. With significant, nontrivial socioeconomic reforms you could probably make most public high schools in NYC as good as Stuyvesant. Even achieving this would require vast amounts of money, probably more than you could convince politicians to tax.

But you'll never get every single public school in the country to empower its students with the resources available to schools like Lakeside and Philips Exeter. It's infeasible. They may as well be research universities.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by tfehring on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @05:46PM (#19100918)
> But you'll never get every single public school in the country to empower its students with the resources available to schools like Lakeside and Philips Exeter. It's infeasible. They may as well be research universities.

They'll never have the same level of resources, but I bet top public schools are already at parity when it comes to quality of education. It doesn't cost $50k/year to provide a $50k/year education - it costs $50k/year to isolate your kid among others whose parents can afford to pay $50k/year.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by MRD85 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @08:10PM (#19101997)
In my country we don't have school funding provided locally, it's a state level funding. Poor schools still do poorly, even with more funding. One of the big issues is school culture. A bright student surrounded my low SES kids isn't going to perform as well as a bright student in a high SES room
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by MRD85 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @08:08PM (#19101989)
There was an experiment in the USA about a school given unlimited funding. It didn't help grades or any other metric they measures. Look up the Kansas school district experiment.