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A comment on US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages. Parent comment

Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by justaguyhere on Friday January 25, 2019 @10:58AM (#18999046)
they're explicitly prevented from striking

Wow, is this true? Is this even legal (except maybe police and military)?

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by saalweachter on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:02AM (#18999091)
What's legal is what 5 people on the Supreme Court say is legal.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by bdcravens on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:32AM (#18999539)
Unless it was deemed an emergency, how many months does it take a typical case to make it before the USSC?
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by hindsightbias on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:58AM (#18999831)
All the years it takes to get through lower courts and appeals. And then probably six months after it is accepted.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by pc86 on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:01AM (#18999082)
ATC is going to be as important economically and for public safety as police and military. You literally cannot fly commercial flights without ATC. They issue the flight plans, provide the routing, provide clearances for every taxi movement on the ground and every landing and takeoff for every commercial flight in the country.

So what I mean is that whatever argument is made to make it illegal for police to strike (assuming it is), the same argument applies to ATC.

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by opwieurposiu on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:19AM (#18999355)
This is just wrong. Commercial flights fly all the time without ATC. The majority of airports in the USA are uncontrolled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by Casseres on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:06PM (#18999923)
Air Traffic Controller here. You are correct.

There are many airports that are just a runway and have CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency) where pilots advise each other of their position, heading, intentions, etc.

ATC can give clearances to aircraft landing and taking off from such airports, but the clearances only apply in controlled airspace, usually starting 700ft above the ground. ATC can also make sure there are no other IFR traffic for aircraft requesting clearances, but if it's VMC (visual meteorological conditions), there could be VFR traffic for the IFR aircraft that ATC is not talking to.

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by pc86 on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:44AM (#19017338)
Even taking off from an uncontrolled airport don't Part 125 commercial ops still require ATC to operate?
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by base698 on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:29AM (#18999495)
Any flight above 17999 ft in class A airspace requires an IFR flight plan. IFR requires controllers for the clearance, release, and approach clearance. Probably what he means....

Most Jets and planes people have experience with would be flying at those altitudes.

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by Casseres on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:46AM (#18999713)
FYI:

Civilian flights in Class A airspace (at or above 18,000ft in most places) require an IFR clearance.

State flights can fly "due regard" (VFR) in Class A airspace.

In Hawaii, there is no Class A airspace, and I once controlled a civilian aircraft flying VFR at FL210 (21,000ft).

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by pc86 on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:07PM (#18999931)
I never said they didn't. Commercial flights must fly IFR, which means they must receive an IFR clearance prior to takeoff.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by akhilcacharya on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:31AM (#18999524)
Commercial airliners do not take off in non-towered airports.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by Casseres on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:48AM (#18999737)
Yes they do. I have issued clearances through Flight Service to such aircraft.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by opwieurposiu on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:43AM (#18999677)
There are many Commercial flights every day to non-towered airports. In backcounty Alaska this is the norm. Clearly you have a big-city bias in your thinking.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by akhilcacharya on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:55AM (#18999806)
OK, that's fair. Didn't consider Alaska which is known for these requirements.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by knotdvn on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:08AM (#18999165)
Invest in my startup. UBER for ATC. Algorithms for Routing, Smart Contract, BlockChain, Natural Language...

Disruption

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by AndyMcConachie on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:16AM (#18999291)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act

The Act allows the President to intervene in any strike that is considered a national security interest. And this has been interpreted in the courts rather broadly.

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by benmowa on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:45PM (#19000343)
I would hope this only applies to the Union's ability to call a strike, not an individuals right to call in sick?
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by okl on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:00AM (#18999067)
It happened in the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr...
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by tylerl on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:06AM (#18999140)
Safety-critical services like police, military, and yes, air traffic control, are not allowed to go on strike.

Everyone who's working without pay is also not allowed to strike. Everyone else who is not getting paid are not expected to work during the shut down.

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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by NeedMoreTea on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:12AM (#18999238)
Reagan outlawed ATC strikes, after firing all of them during a dispute early in his presidency. Early 80s.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by Cyph0n on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:21AM (#18999388)
I highly doubt that any president would ever dare do that again. It took years for the US to recover...
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by rootusrootus on Friday January 25, 2019 @12:04PM (#18999901)
How many times since early in 2017 have we collectively said something like "I highly doubt that any president would ever dare ..." only to find out that the current occupant of that position has no such qualms?
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by Cyph0n on Friday January 25, 2019 @05:09PM (#19003026)
Touche.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by odonnellryan on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:15AM (#18999271)
They can absolutely quit, but not strike. Does not seem constitutional in the US but eh.
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Re:US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages by opwieurposiu on Friday January 25, 2019 @11:02AM (#18999097)
The usual justification is that Federal workers get more benefits (pensions!!) then other workers and so they give up their right to strike in return.
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