Toyota have traditionally built their reputation of quality by conservativly adopting new technology, especially when it comes to drivetrains.

I'm not aware of any Toyota vehicles sold in the U.K that have a turbocharger, except the Supra which shares the drivetrain, suspension, platform and some interior with the BMW Z4.

Heck, their Yaris GRMN uses the 1.8 supercharged engine that Toyota have been selling to Lotus for years.

I wonder how Toyota plan to transfer this to electric vehicles given how new the technology still is.

Prius drivetrain is quite complicated.

> that have a turbocharger,

It's not only Toyota. I think this is an instance of you get what you measure. European car automakers jump into turbocharged engines, because it was easy to meet NDEC. Now WLTP makes it a way harder, hence mild hybridization.

I am bit thinking out loud, drive train becomes important if its a plug-in hybrid when you have to change from electric to gas (and vice-versa), but in electric it is meant to be simple, is drive train even an issue of innovation in Electric cars, after all there is only Drive and Reverse.

I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex.

You'd have independent electric motors on at least 2, perhaps all 4 wheels. You have to redesign entire platforms to fit batteries, ensure the batteries and the drivetrain have adequate cooling, ensure that the electric motors have a certain amount of longevity, and so on.

With the exception of a few niche vehicles, most EVs have only 1 (FWD/RWD) or 2 (AWD) motors. Though it's a new platform, electric motors aren't exactly a new technology and overall it's significantly fewer moving parts to fail. There's also the fact that many manufacturers come up with a single "skateboard" platform for multiple vehicles, which reduces the overall complexity of manufacturing EVs.

As far as I understand the current state of EVs, EVs have eliminated the engine and it's ancillaries.

However, EVs still have CV joints, differentials (dependent on the car, Tesla runs an open differential), independent suspension - all of which must be much stronger since electric motors produce far more torque than ICEs and also have the added weight penalty.

The power-train is everything from wheels to engine. Where as drive-train is the power-train minus the engine.

The transmission is the most complicated part of the drive-train and arguably more complicated than all of the other drive-train components combined. In current EVs there is no transmission, just a single reduction gearbox.

In an EV the engine is dramatically simplified compared to an ICE and there are significantly fewer parts and almost no moving parts in comparison.

Another thing to consider is that all internal combustion engines have multiple supplementary systems that are required to function such as cooling, fuel delivery, and ignition. At most an EV motor might require supplementary cooling but no commercial vehicle has one that I'm aware of.

Of course, ICE powertrains have lots of moving parts, but the comparison that EV cars are simple is just not an accurate representation of EV cars.

There are fewer moving parts, I agree. The architecture itself is simpler too, I agree. But the individual components are still massively complex and expensive. High density Lithion-ion is very complex, and also requires a number of supplementary systems to manage power, heat, cooling and monitor the array.

You could make the same argument about the exotic metallurgy used in ICE components. Just like with an ICE subsystem, most of those subsystems you mentioned aren't trade secrets and have far greater operating tolerances than in an ICE.

That's all very old and simple tech. The quality is only limited by the bean counters keeping costs down.

> I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex.

They're significantly less complicated than an ICE power-train and drive-train.

The Nissan Leaf has a single electric motor and a fixed reduction gear box. The only fluids to maintain are the wiper fluid and reduction gear box fluid, which is similar to automatic transmission fluid but requires less maintenance. The battery pack is air cooled and the only servicing is an annual inspection to maintain warranty.

The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox. They come in single or dual motor options. The batteries are cooled and the fluid is changed at 4 year intervals.

The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection.

>The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox.

This is wrong. They have a single electric motor (except the dual-motor ones) and a fixed reduction gear box, just like the Leaf. No one does direct-drive electric motors because it's a lot easier to make a faster-spinning motor and then use a reduction gear to get usable torque from it; a direct-drive motor would have to have a huge diameter.

>The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection.

You're forgetting the brakes. EVs still have regular hydraulic brake systems that need new pads and fluid, though not as much because they can use regenerative braking much of the time, avoiding use of the friction brakes, which are really for emergency stops and full stops.

> This is wrong.

You're right. I was mistaken, I thought I had read that the Roadster was the only Tesla with a gearbox but that it was eliminated with a free upgrade. There's still a gearbox but it's a fixed single reduction gear.

> You're forgetting the brakes.

I wasn't, I was touching on the differences between an EV and an ICE with regards to maintenance. Brakes are a consumable that are inspected and changed as needed rather than at regular interval like the belts or fluids in an ICE vehicle.

Brakes and brake fluid are part of the multi-point inspection that's done on all vehicles when they're serviced. As you pointed out, EVs use their brakes significantly less than ICE vehicles and so any maintenance of the brake system will be less frequent than an equivalent ICE vehicle.

Overall EVs require significantly less maintenance to their drive/power-train AND to some of their traditional systems (e.g. brakes).

I'd like to refute the point about brakes. A lot of it is based on the driver, not just the vehicle.

I've driven a manual all my life. I don't really enjoy automatics, and I've got to the point now where I've pretty much perfected rev matching and heel and toe so I can engine brake most of the time with minimal wear on my clutch and shock to my drive train.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think I wear my brakes any faster than if I drove an electric car. I'd love to do an experiment to see if this was the case, it sounds like as lot of fun!

However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers.

> However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers.

For every ICE driver like you, there are an equal number of EV drivers trying to optimize their driving habits as well. The difference between ICE and EV when it comes to brake wear is that it's an active effort for an ICE driver and passive for an EV driver.

The regenerative braking in an EV varies by make/model but the 1st gen. Nissan Leaf has by far the least aggressive system. With the Leaf, the brake engagement is based on a number of factors from how fast you're going to how hard you press on the brake. The Leaf will almost come to a complete halt simply by taking your foot off the accelerator and allowing the regen system to drag the car to a stop without ever depressing the brake. In stop-and-go traffic you rarely have to take your foot off the gas.

In the Leaf when you depress the brake pedal the regenerative system ramps up quickly and only after it has peaked do the mechanical brakes engage. When stopping it's not uncommon to hear the mechanical brakes engage just as the car comes to a rest to hold the car at a stand still, it's an audible thunk.

The Tesla Model 3's regenerative braking is quite aggressive compared to the Leaf and if you take your foot completely off the accelerator pedal you will lurch forward in your seat as the car quickly decelerates.

I personally find the Leaf to be a much easier, and a lot less fun, to drive than the Model 3 because of how the brake regen systems work. In my 2015 Leaf I can engage hill mode (aggressive regen) and eco mode (gummy pedal) and then only have to touch the brakes to come to a complete halt. I've yet to find a setting in the Model 3 that compares.

You should go test drive something like the Model 3 as it's a very different driving experience to an ICE in terms of braking.

>You should go test drive something like the Model 3 as it's a very different driving experience to an ICE in terms of braking.

You sound like you took one test drive of the Model 3 at one setting and have no idea that there are multiple settings. If you go through the menus, the aggressiveness of the regen braking is settable. You can make the car "creep" as if it has an automatic transmission, or you can make it not "creep", like cars with manual transmissions and clutches. You can set it for aggressive regen like a real EV, or you can set it for non-aggressive regen so it feels like driving a regular car with an auto trans.

The proper setting, IMO, is the full-EV mode with very aggressive regen. You're not supposed to use the accelerator as an accelerator, you're supposed to use it as a speed control pedal. So you don't take your foot off the pedal at all, unless you need to brake hard. The rest of the time, you keep your foot on the pedal and modulate it to control your speed. If that's a problem for you, it's because you learned bad driving habits with non-EV vehicles, and you need to learn better driving habits now.

Was this just an opportunity for you to insult me twice? Because you confirmed my claim that it's different by pointing out that it has settings to make it feel less different.

You made a claim about the car and how its regen braking works, implying that that was the only way it could work. You then said a different car had settings to change this, but you said nothing about the Model 3's settings, which in fact, let you change this thing that you're complaining about.

You make it very hard to discuss anything because you're aggressively looking for flaws in people's comments that you can object to (i.e. you like to argue) which intern means people are less likely to invest effort in responding because we're hear to have friendly discussions.

> implying that that was the only way it could work.

You're interpreting it how you want to and not taking what's being said in the context it's given.

The comment I was responding to remarked that they used engine braking as a means of reducing brake wear. They acknowledged to have never driven an EV and I was pointing out that by default an EV exhibits a behavior (i.e. regenerative braking) that is similar and, unlike engine braking, is not something you consciously have to perform. It's on by default.

You swoop in to tell me how I'm wrong (which I'm not) and that I'm complaining (which I wasn't).

> the Model 3's settings, which in fact, let you change this thing that you're complaining about.

First, I wasn't complaining about it at all, go back and reread what I said.

> I personally find the Leaf to be ... a lot less fun, to drive...

With both cars you have to keep constant pressure on the accelerator to coast, however the Model 3 requires you to maintain greater pressure which leads to fatigue faster (i.e. less fun). In the Leaf you can set Regenerative Braking to Normal and disable Eco Mode, which increases throttle response and reduces pedal weight, which allows you to coast at highway speeds with minimal pedal pressure. The Model 3's equivalent settings (i.e. Acceleration = Standard, Regenerative Braking = Low) require much more pedal pressure to coast at highway speeds.

Second, even when you set Regenerative Braking to Low in the Tesla, it is still not like driving an ICE vehicle. The Model 3's least aggressive Regenerative Braking setting is so aggressive that if you completely remove your foot from the accelerator it automatically illuminates your brake lights. Unless you're driving in a manual transmission vehicle and you downshift, you will never experience that kind of tug.

So no, in fact, you cannot change the settings in the Model 3 to be comparable to a conventional ICE vehicle. At best you can get a behavior that's akin to driving a manual transmission vehicle aggressively.

Again, I'm not complaining about the Model 3 or any EV.

With regards to my "one test drive" experience with EVs: https://i.imgur.com/KUnPluM.jpg

I would love to, I'm not sure we will have the Model 3 in the U.K for quite some time still. I'll give it a go when they're available and hopefully report back on a future article!

>Brakes are a consumable that are inspected and changed as needed rather than at regular interval like the belts or fluids in an ICE vehicle.

Wrong again. Brake pads and rotors, yes, but brake fluid needs to be bled and changed at regular intervals regardless of usage.

> Wrong again.

Am I? I said annual maintenance, is brake fluid changed annually? The requirements vary by manufacturer (e.g. Chevy every 45k, Honda every 3 years).

Pedantry aside...

The brake system on an Electric Vehicle will require the same or less maintenance than an equivalent Internal Combustion Engine vehicle.

And Electric Vehicle will require less maintenance overall compared to the equivalent Internal Combustion Engine vehicle.

Yes, you're wrong. Go back and read the line you wrote (I quoted it for you in the previous post). You said brakes are a consumable, and you kinda implied that EV brakes don't even have fluid(!). Now you're admitting that it does need to be changed, which is exactly what I pointed out you were wrong about. This isn't "pedantry", it's a pretty major operation that has to be done regularly (as you said, roughly every 3 years for most cars I think; brake systems are all about the same these days and use the same fluids. My Mazda has a very similar requirement as those you mentioned.) It's not a hard job, but it does take some time and shop labor is expensive so it's not an especially cheap job.

>The brake system on an Electric Vehicle will require the same or less maintenance than an equivalent Internal Combustion Engine vehicle.

This is correct. You don't need to change the pads/rotors nearly as often, but the fluid still needs maintenance.

>And Electric Vehicle will require less maintenance overall compared to the equivalent Internal Combustion Engine vehicle.

Yes, of course, I never said otherwise. But it's important to remember that "less maintenance" doesn't equal "no maintenance". A lot of the systems on an EV are the same as current cars, and maintenance/repair will be little different: wheels/tires/bearings, suspension/ball joints/struts, wipers/washers, brakes, HVAC.

So I'm wrong because you say so even though you agree with what I said? Got it.

I've seen claims by Tesla that their brakes never need service due to the fact they're barely used. Not sure how accurate that is, but it's sort of logical.

Sounds like BS. Even if you almost never use them, brake fluid has a finite life and needs to be replaced every few years. Brake systems are never perfectly hermetically sealed and brake fluid is hygroscopic.

Plus: What about rust?

Rust is usually rubbed off when the brakes are engaged. Buildup on any vehicle is only really an issue when the vehicle sits undriven for long periods of time.

In EVs the brakes are engaged, just less frequently and with less force. For example in a normal car when you depress the brake pedal gently to slow to a normal stop the brakes engage immediately. In an EV the regenerative braking force increases when you depress the brake pedal and only after it has hit 100% do the brakes engage.

So with an ICE vehicle the brakes are the primary stopping force most of the time where as with an EV they're the secondary stopping force most of the time.

I think he may be referring to rust inside the brake lines. I've seen it before on an older vehicle that probably never had its brake fluid changed. Over time, moisture gets into the system and corrodes the steel brake lines, causing rust to get into the fluid. It's why you have to change the fluid every so often: it's impossible to keep moisture out, and the fluid is hygroscopic.

Please stop getting involved in flamewars about brakes or otherwise. Tedious back and forths like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19001513 are something we're trying to avoid here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please don't engage in nasty spats on HN. If you think someone's behaving abusively, let us know at [email protected], and avoid breaking the site guidelines yourself.

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Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. I mean, I'm sure Toyota will think about it more than I have, but that's one of the major benefits of this shift towards battery vehicles.

>Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up.

You would think so, but Tesla had a lot of problems with their electric motors and had to replace lots of them.

Tesla is in an interesting position where they have a lot of apologists for various kinds of problems that no other automaker gets. I don't think their experience is necessarily indicative of how an entranched, reliable automaker's EV experience will shake out.

Perhaps, but it's not like there's a lot of other examples of battery EVs out there to compare with, just the Leaf and the Bolt really. There's also the motors in the Volt and Prius (which are both capable of running motor-only, and for the Volt the motor provides all the propulsion). But you have a point, none of those others have had any motor problems I've heard of. Thought to be fair, the Tesla motors are a lot more powerful than those in any of those other cars.

EVs are dramatically simplified in comparison to ICE vehicles and thus the power-train is much more reliable. For any automaker this increased reliability is only going to help their reputation.

This poses a problem for Toyota and others (e.g. Honda) who are known for having very reliable power-trains, not because their reliability will suffer but rather because other automaker's power-trains will get significantly better. That is assuming those other automakers don't find a way to screw up, I have no doubt some will.

I'm concerned like this a quite a blanket statement. Are all EVs that much simpler? There are simple EV drivetrains and there are complex EV drivetrains. Not all EV drivetrains are the same.

This also applies to ICE. Most ICE drivetrains that do not have forced induction tend to be quite simple. Forced induction makes the drivetrain much more complex and puts a lot more strain on the drivetrain, and is one of the reasons why Toyota has stayed away from forced induction.

Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? I'm not sure, and would love to be proved incorrect on this.

> Are all EVs that much simpler?

Yes.

Internal Combustion Engines have at a minimum a Combustion System, Ignition System, Fuel Delivery System, Exhaust System, and a Cooling System. These can vary in complexity but, apart from air cooling, any one of those systems will be more complex than an EV's electric power-train. On top of that, most of the parts of an ICE are mechanical moving parts where as most of the parts of an electric motor are stationary non-moving parts.

ICE vehicles almost universally have a transmission gear box that contains a configurable gear system to alter the gear ratio of the vehicle. All EVs on the market use a fixed gear box with a single reduction gear set.

> Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris?

Yes, dramatically.

Where are the complex EV drivetrains? It isn't remotely the same thing as ICE. Even the most reliable ICE drivetrains are extremely complex. Toyota just uses conservative and overbuilt ICE technology to achieve remarkable reliability. That's fine, but still has tons of moving parts compared to electric drivetrains.