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Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by stale2002 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:20PM (#18916085)
No, the alternative is not a hard border.

The alternative isnfor the UK and ireland to simply refuse to enforcr a hard border and dare the EU to do it if they are so upset about customs.

What, is the EU going to station troops there, because of trade deals?

Neither Ireland or the UK are interested in enforcing any sort of hard border. It is instead the EU who would become unhappy about broken trade deals.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:26PM (#18917161)
> The alternative isnfor the UK and ireland to simply refuse to enforcr a hard border

But that means Britain effectively has an open border with the EU (which Brexiters don't like, and probably some Remainers don't like in the context of Brexit though they are happy with it with UK a full member of the EU with a say in union policy), or has an internal border between NI and the rest of the UK (which pretty much no one in the UK likes.) The EU has a similar problem with Ireland where the UK has NI.

Which is why this issue is intractable; it internally has no good solution on either side, even before the difficulty of getting agreement between the sides. This is worse on the UK side, because of the interaction with the Good Friday Accords; it's not just abstract political displeasure, it's potentially undermining an internal peace agreement.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by stale2002 on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @12:07AM (#18918383)
> But that means Britain effectively has an open border with the EU

The UK and Ireland do not want a hard border. That is a fact. They aren't going to enforce it.

It is irelevant to point out the consequences, because both sides have stated that they will never ever ever enforce a hard border.

The UK and Ireland would both be perfectly fine with not having a hard border. They have stated as such.

You can call it dumb or say that it undermines the purpose of brexit, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Both Ireland and the UK are willing to accept the consequences of not having a hard border no matter the consequences.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @01:15AM (#18918635)
> It is irelevant to point out the consequences

It's pretty relevant, because the UK government doesn't have Parliamentary support for either of the alternatives, given Brexit, to the the thing they say they won't do, and also seems (though surprises are possible) to be likely to prevent Brexit from being derailed even if they can't pass a Brexit deal. So it's quite likely that we’re heading to a Brexit with none of the choices regarding the Irish border being politically viable.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by stale2002 on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @01:34PM (#18923520)
But there is a politically viable choice for the Irish border!

That political choice is "don't do anything about it, and leave it without a hard border". And this is the choice that both the UK and Ireland want to take.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @02:28PM (#18924127)
> That political choice is "don't do anything about it, and leave it without a hard border".

That would be (from the UK side) the effective open border with the EU choice.

> And this is the choice that both the UK and Ireland want to take.

No, Brexit with the Irish border as an end-run around Britain’s new EU border is not a choice that has majority Parliamentary support in the UK.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by philwelch on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @04:28PM (#18925474)
There's lots of political precedent for having a status quo that no one explicitly supports, but no one explicitly supports any realistic alternative to.

For example, the US has, for years, refused to pass any kind of immigration reform, but until recently, also refused to comprehensively enforce the immigration laws already on the books because they were really awful and unfair in places. For another example, neither the People's Republic of China nor the Republic of China (effectively Taiwan) recognize each other, and yet Taiwanese businesses own tons of factories in mainland, PRC-controlled China.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by vkou on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:05PM (#18916557)
> The alternative isnfor the UK and ireland to simply refuse to enforcr a hard border and dare the EU to do it if they are so upset about customs.

I thought half the point of Brexit was so that the UK could secure it's borders.

And they are just going to leave their biggest land border wide open?

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by derriz on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:41PM (#18916314)
This seems to be the "magic" solution for all the logical inconsistencies of the brexit position - ignore the problem and pretend it will magically solve itself. Know of any other land borders between different customs regimes which take this approach?
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by Tomte on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:52PM (#18916418)
> What, is the EU going to station troops there, because of trade deals?

Hopefully yes. I don't want to eat some toxic food that nobody checked when it entered the EU.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by stale2002 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:03PM (#18917035)
If this happened then the EU would suffer the negative consequences of stationing troops there.

IE, they would become the target of terrorist attacks. I doubt they would want this to happen to them.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by rmc on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @08:15AM (#18920522)
Brexit was sold as "Take back control of our borders" and "Limit Immigration". You're telling me the UK doesn't want border checks?!?
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by umanwizard on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:49PM (#18916384)
Ireland is part of the EU.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by lozenge on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:23PM (#18916706)
Ireland are not making plans for a hard border, even in the case of no deal.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by tim333 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:58PM (#18916990)
The EU would take legal action against Ireland to make them collect necessary tariffs.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by stale2002 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:02PM (#18917026)
At which point the EU gets the blame.

Ireland would absolutely, under no circumstances, enforce a hard border. They would simply refused to do it.