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Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by vinceguidry on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:26PM (#18914739)
Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with.

There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside.

Recently we've moved to a more contract-based system because using force sucks and you only want to do it if you absolutely have to. But that brings with it its own set of problems. Getting everybody on the same page is hard. Politics largely deals with local perspectives, even when it has to aspire to "the will of the people" when it comes to things like entering into international treaties.

Brexit is history in the making. The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war. It's aim is to make something as singularly powerful as the United States, without force. The US had to clear out the West by force in order to achieve its Manifest Destiny. Great that we have it now, but we can't just keep fighting wars to achieve political unity.

That without force part is the problem being solved. Whatever happens here will influence all future non-violent political integrations humanity has going forward.

Make no mistake, this matters. Moreso than just about anything we've done since WW2.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:29PM (#18914776)
> The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war.

Not just without war, but between nations that've been regularly at war with each other (in various iterations) for well over a thousand years.

It's a pretty remarkable achievement.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by toosangiforthis on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:33PM (#18914814)
EU has achieved more than most political unions by solving Franco-German rivalries and establishing a common Coal and Steel market for both countries
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by gwbas1c on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:40PM (#18914920)
And some EU states still don't recognize each other. Just look at the 49.999 hz issue.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by Rebelgecko on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:44PM (#18914978)
For those who are having trouble googling that term: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16535067
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by r3bl on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:08PM (#18915298)
What? Serbia is an EU candidate, not an EU member. It is an outsider to this.

Five EU members don't recognize Kosovo as independent, meaning that Kosovo can't even apply for the EU membership. Serbia's making small steps, but won't enter any time soon.

This was a European problem (as in, the continent) that had nothing to do with the EU specifically.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by jerven on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:55PM (#18915114)
Neither Serbia nor Kosovo are EU member states. Serbia thinks Kosovo is not a country but a province/county of itself.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by grey-area on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:39PM (#18914909)
This may yet lead to war. If the EU starts to disintegrate, I expect to see war in Europe as a result.

I do have some sympathy with the argument Brexit is a waste of resources, it matters of course but if people were sold lies that can never happen (good trade relations with a trade bloc you just left, low immigration and a strong economy, freedom of services and goods but not of people), that’s a waste of everyone’s time and money for years, it’s not a serious political argument, it’s a deadly pantomime which undermines representative democracy and encourages extremists and fascists. We’ve already seen one MP murdered by extremists (Jo Cox).

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by albertgoeswoof on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:36PM (#18914862)
I’m not sure. I think we’ll leave or stay in the EU and it won’t make a tangible difference in the long run. Not in the way that say the internet, smartphones, antibiotics, nuclear weapons/power, quantum physics etc etc have made a difference to the world.

MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon, so we’ll be trading with the EU regardless, it’s all semanitics and minor politics.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by erikpukinskis on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:30PM (#18915546)
It may not make an identifiable difference, but it will make a material difference. I’m not sure what tangible means in this context.

What was the effect of Columbus sailing across the Atlantic? Maybe nothing! Maybe another sailor would have come 20 years later and American history would have played out just the same with different dates.

Or would two decades of Aztec rule made a difference? Two more decades of Nagualism before the Church started eradicating the libraries and the language? Could books have been copied and hidden? Would political bodies have had more time to adapt? Were there tipping points on the horizon?

Or was America in a steady state just waiting for Europe to come plunder it? Are forces at play which are so much bigger than individuals that nothing we do really matters?

Personally, I think it all matters very much. History does not repeat itself, it’s a story built on every word that came before it. Brexit will frame everything that comes after it, and if we had swapped this decade for a different decade in UK history, we would have a very different story.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by hollerith on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:44PM (#18914979)
>MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon

Was the Korean war a major war in your book? To the Korean people it was.

In that war, the US's having nukes did not prevent North Korea from starting the war, did not prevent the Soviets from sending MIGs with Soviet pilots against the US army and air force and did not prevent China from sending a million soldiers.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by albertgoeswoof on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:49PM (#18915038)
From a euro centric perspective Korea is a proxy war. MAD blocks major conflict directly between two nuclear states or states with strong nuclear allies. It doesn’t prevent wars fought in other territories backed by nuclear states (eg Syria)
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by hollerith on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:02PM (#18915203)
China sends a million soldiers over its border with Korea with the usual instructions to try to kills as many soldiers of the enemy (composed mostly of US soldiers) as possible, and your reply is that that is not a major conflict between the US and China?

Alternatively, do you claim that the fact that China at that time lacked nukes somehow emboldened China whereas if they had had nukes, they would have hesitated?

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by shripadk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:07PM (#18915291)
Conventional wars have been fought in the past between two nuclear states. On example is that of the Kargil War[1] which was a major conflict between India and Pakistan. This was not fought in a different territory.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by vinceguidry on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:42PM (#18914951)
MAD's not really a thing unfortunately. Nuclear winter was always a myth.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by freehunter on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:59PM (#18915170)
It doesn't take nuclear winter for countries to make the decision that "if I nuke them they will nuke me and that will be bad".
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by vinceguidry on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:05PM (#18915267)
Yeah but that's just military tactics. As well just fly a bomber in and just drop a bomb on the capital. Same deterrent value.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by sparkie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:04PM (#18915920)
> Brexit is history in the making. The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war. It's aim is to make something as singularly powerful as the United States, without force.

The thing is, the people of the UK don't want to be part of that "United States of Europe". It is being forced upon them. The failure of pro-EU people to recognize that they are breeding unrest will lead to civil war, unless they allow the Brits to exit as they've voted to do.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by n4r9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:07PM (#18915966)
I think that's a sweeping generalisation. I suspect, admittedly without numbers to back it up, that a significant minority of people in the UK - myself included - are happy to be part of a greater European state. I also suspect that there is a generational factor, and that this significant minority will grow over time to become a majority.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by sparkie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:17PM (#18916058)
The problem with you rejecting my claim as a "sweeping generalization" is that you've done exactly the same in your counter argument.

Polls are not reliable (they didn't predict the vote, after all). The vote is the most reliable data we have on the positions of the people of the UK. It is the biggest sample set of any measurement performed, and 1.3M more people turned out to vote leave than to remain.

My assessment of today's youth is that they're rebellious, like any generation of youth. What they're rebelling against is pro-EU, pro-socialism that has been fed to them throughout their childhood. Conservatism is on the rise among the young.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by n4r9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:45PM (#18916359)
Your claim that the vote is the most reliable data we have flatly contradicts your last paragraph: 61% of men and 80% of women aged 18-24 voted Remain. The Leave vote was very much carried through by the older generation. The polarity is such that if you assume the same proportion of remain voters for those below 18 (and I don't see why not) then the tables turned last November.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by mathgenius on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:35PM (#18914841)
Politics should be utterly boring, instead we get this endless theatrics. Politics should not be entertaining at all. Same goes for finance & banking. These jobs should be the most boring jobs in the world. Just get on with it, and forget about all the posturing and game-of-thrones crap.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by Unibod on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:38PM (#18916280)
In the UK the Civil Service used to perform this function. They would take the desires and direction of the the current Government and implement them. They used their skill to make them as most likely to succeed. This included cost, legislative timescales and their sole aim was to implement the desire of the leaders of that time.

This has been systematically dismantled and much of the responsibility now given to agencies. They don't necessarily share the same aims. Agencies are now major contributors to political parties and a dispassionate approach no longer exists.

A great quote - no one wants innovative bankers. The UK has made this a reality in the political sphere.

A new normal will emerge.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:43PM (#18914969)
> Just get on with it, and forget about all the posturing and game-of-thrones crap.

But what is "it"? Sadly, Politics will always be about ideology, and that's never going to be boring or quiet.

Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by grenoire on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:44PM (#18914976)
Nothing can be boring when it concerns some of the ultimate properties (albeit not always unique) that make us human: Greed, desire, and belonging.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by mprev on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:05PM (#18915270)
Yep, we've had two and a half lost years. If there is an upside, then it looks like not many great minds are actually working on Brexit.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by robterrell on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:37PM (#18914874)
Was Russian election interference a big part of this story? If so, that was money well spent.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by gweinberg on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:57PM (#18915146)
The Russians allegedly spent 97 pence favoring brexit. Really. Indeed, they did get their money's worth.
Re:Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament by hacker_9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:23PM (#18914702)
Great minds debate Brexit?