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Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lbj on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:01AM (#18912073)
I wonder whyI always get downvoted into oblivion for stating that which to me is an obvious fact: The EU is too far removed from reality to legislate. It now has a long and sordid history of over-doing things to the extreme.

In Denmark, we've had 'cinnamon patrols' go from bakery to bakery to verify that only the allowed amount of cinnamon was sprinkled on buns.

We had what felt like a complete shutdown of IT departments in the months leading up to the GDPR because, again, it was overreaching and too vague. (the idea was good though)

I could write a list much longer, but in general I think the Unix approach works: Many small things that each do one thing well. The EU is the opposite: One giant thing which does nothing well - If for no other reason, than the distance from the Parliament to a wooden cabin on the mountains of norway is just too great for them to regulate that cabin in great detail, but still this is what they attempt to do. And now, down to each word on each and every webpage accesible from the EU.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by emptyfile on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:26AM (#18912313)
>I wonder whyI always get downvoted into oblivion for stating that which to me is an obvious fact

Well when you write obviously non factual nonsense like

>The EU is the opposite: One giant thing which does nothing well

You tend to get downvoted. When you write hilarious nonsense like this

>In Denmark, we've had 'cinnamon patrols' go from bakery to bakery to verify that only the allowed amount of cinnamon was sprinkled on buns.

And imply its the EU's fault, you get downvoted.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lacey on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:56AM (#18912571)
It seems like the cinnamon patrol comment is related to this, which does seem to indicate the interpretation of an EU law is to blame:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/12/25/256602581/wh...

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by arama471 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:04PM (#18912668)
It seems like the EU explicitly made it so the cinnamon rolls wouldn't be affected:

> The EU's regulations on a common type of cinnamon called cassia limit how much bakers can use: 50 milligrams per kilogram of dough, if it's a traditional or seasonal pastry, or 15 milligrams per kilogram if it's just a regular old everyday pastry.

But the Denmark decided their traditional seasonal pastry was an everyday one

> This particular kerfuffle comes because the Danish food authority recently classified kanelsnegler, or cinnamon rolls, as an everyday pastry

So really this is the "fault" of the Danish government, isn't it?

Source for quotes: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/12/eu-worrie...

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by michaelmrose on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:37PM (#18917835)
Can you please explain to me why anyone on the face of this earth would want their government deciding how to classify types of pastry in order to determine how much cinnamon people are allowed to use?

It kind of sounds like the issue is that outside of safety regulations someone told some petty tyrant that they got to decide how to classify pastry so of course they decided to classify it in such a way as to require action and importance on their own part at the expense of everyone's inconvenience.

I suspect the proper fix is to fire everyone in that department and start over.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by arama471 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:43PM (#18917858)
Because they have reason to beleive it can cause liver damage?

Most countries have a body regulating what you can eat that will do it's best to stop you from ingesting dangerous amounts of, well, anything.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by morsma on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:25PM (#18912881)
But a "kanelsnegl" is an everyday pastry in Denmark.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by arama471 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:45PM (#18917860)
But it didn't use to be? From the article it sounds like it used to be a "traditional pastry"
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lbj on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:42AM (#18912441)
I'm glad you find it hillarious. You must not be paying for it.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by guitarbill on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:22PM (#18912850)
For anybody following along, this kind of garbage rhetoric is exactly how Brexit started.

1. Spread misinformation and sow discontent against the EU

2. ???

3. Profit

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by DuskStar on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:46PM (#18913691)
I think this formulation is a bit more accurate:

1. Mention an obscure irritant that is superficially not the EU's fault, and blame the EU for it

2. EU supporters pile on and say that this is what all anti-EU arguments are like

3. When examined in more detail, the irritant actually IS the EU's fault

4. People then accept #2 as true, and hate the EU more (since apparently if they examined all the obvious BS about the EU more closely, they'd find it to be true)

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Silhouette on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:00PM (#18913268)
I might not put things in quite such confrontational terms, but the general complaint some people are making here is valid. The EU does have a track record of taking on technical issues without adequately understanding them and so legislating with perhaps good intentions but not always good results. This has caused significant damage to many organisations because of (presumably) unintended side effects, and obviously that does then have a chilling effect on things like investment plans and even whether to start new businesses at all.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by guitarbill on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:26PM (#18914073)
So do all governments. It's just easier to hate the EU
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Silhouette on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:04PM (#18916547)
So do all governments.

That's true, but not all governments do it with the same ratio of genuine benefit to unwanted side-effects and collateral damage.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by emptyfile on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @05:47AM (#18919746)
Of course I'm not paying for it.

We don't have cinnamon patrols in my EU country, it sounds like the silliest thing in the world.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by morsma on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:38AM (#18912409)
>You tend to get downvoted. When you write hilarious nonsense like this

Can you name anything the EU has done well?

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by dtech on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:08PM (#18913355)
Forced an end to high roaming charges for within-EU mobile usage and forbade charging for receiving SMS while abroad.

Removed internal borders, so you can travel from Denmark to Spain without 5 border crossings.

Created a common market, so you can order an item from a German web shop as a Belgium citizen without hurdles.

Made war between European countries economically unattractive because economies are closely intertwined.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Ralfp on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:36PM (#18913012)
It forced my government to break national monopoly on internet access, bringing ASDL prices down from $265 month to just $8.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by dmitriid on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:01PM (#18913285)
"Europe is still the closest thing to paradise on Earth"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/19/europe...

It's from 2012, but the vast majority of what's said there is still true.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by hollerith on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:18PM (#18913460)
Europe is however more likely than the US is to get bad quickly. It became a bad place to live for example from 1914 through 1918 and then again from 1939 through 1945 with, e.g., shortages of food and other life essentials while the US remained OK unless you were in the small fraction of the population that got drafted into the US military (and even then you would not have endured food shortages).

Although the creation of the EU was motivated in large part to prevent the recurrence of that sort of badness, the EU does not have the power to restrain the militaries of the individual European countries. Note that the EU was shown not to have the power to compel the Italian government that came to power because of the general election of March 2018 to adhere to EU regulations on deficit spending.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by dtech on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:34PM (#18913598)
War within the EU is really really unlikely. A successful part of the EEC/EU is integrating the economies of its countries to such an extend that war becomes economically un-viable.

Nowadays war between France and Germany is close to as absurd a thought as a war between Calafornia and Texas is. It's not remotely comparable to 1900-1950.

Russia is the largest threat for European countries, but currently an attack on a NATO member seems unlikely.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by hollerith on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:13PM (#18913949)
That's what experts were saying before 1914, too: war is really unlikely because the economies are more integrated than they have ever been.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Ralfp on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:15PM (#18914604)
This is patently false. Theme in pre-1914 continental European press was monarchies struggling with independence movements, question of next Franc-Prussian conflict (because everybody was certain that peace between those two can't hold), and stability of Russian empire (that was at time engaged in bloody war with Japanese while being shaken by internal tensions).

Inter-war period was hardly one of economical integration, considered that most of European countries were engaged in economic war with other - eg. Poland had no economic exchange with its neighbours.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by dtech on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:49PM (#18915042)
Tensions were very high in early 20th century Europe. If you're honestly saying this you either have not read history books on the era, or you know something very scary about Merkel that I don't.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by anon4242 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:21PM (#18914678)
[Citation needed]
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Dumbdo on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:34PM (#18913594)
There was no such thing as a European Union in WWI and II, which the discussion is about. That's why I don't understand how your comment is relevant here.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by ethelward on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:38PM (#18916816)
First there was no EU neither in 1914 nor in 1939.

Second, the US were not a nice place to live in 1861, while Europe was. Time changes.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by pas on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:59AM (#18912606)
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by kazen44 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:10PM (#18913371)
allowed for unproppeled growth across europe? The internal market is a massive advantage.

Also, throwing it weight around on the geopolitical stage has been proven more then useful for european nations, compared to getting picked off by either china/USA/Russia.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by MadraRua on Thursday January 17, 2019 @11:38AM (#18932178)
Its generally improved the economies of its 28 member states and the standards of living for over half a billion people.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by dmitriid on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:26PM (#18912898)
GDPR
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by detaro on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:24AM (#18912285)
> In Denmark, we've had 'cinnamon patrols' go from bakery to bakery to verify that only the allowed amount of cinnamon was sprinkled on buns.

So your government decided to go overboard with enforcement (instead of classifying cinnamon buns as a traditional good and exempt, like the Swedish did, if those are a big issue in Denmark) and that's purely the EU's fault? (Or did they did not go overboard and regular food safety inspections with one more thing to test on the list got styled as "cinnamon patrols"?)

The EU certainly has very far reach and goes into pedantic detail, which isn't always good, but states love to redirect annoyance at their crap implementation on it. That's still partially a problem with it, but still annoys me.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by chosenbreed37 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:13AM (#18912183)
> In Denmark, we've had 'cinnamon patrols' go from bakery to bakery to verify that only the allowed amount of cinnamon was sprinkled on buns.

Is this for real? I know it's anecdotal but I find it hilarious

> I could write a list much longer, but in general I think the Unix approach works: Many small things that each do one thing well. The EU is the opposite: One giant thing which does nothing well

Well...I'm sure many could point out somethings that the EU has done well...I guess at the heart of regulating cinnamon buns is the issue of standards...that specific instance is probably an overkill but having a common standard of electrical equipment produced/imported to the EU makes sense...at the very least you could argue that some member states have benefited considerably although that may not necessarily be attributable to EU policy

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lbj on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:18AM (#18912229)
Yeah I'm afraid the example is quite real.

But sure, example could be dug up of good things the EU have done. But even in those cases the cost is much too great.

For instance, they built a really nice hallway at the Parliament, but when it came time to name it, they assigned 76 diplomats and the president of the EU to work through the name. That alone ended up costing something like 11 million euros.

I can't think of anything they've done, which hasn't resulted in millions of taxpayers money being poured down the drain. Not surprisingly, the EU has the lowest growth rate in the world.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by pas on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:01PM (#18912630)
> Not surprisingly, the EU has the lowest growth rate in the world.

What would be the growth rate without the single market?

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by gdhbcc on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:54PM (#18917317)
Competition breeds excellence
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by sobani on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @05:14AM (#18919601)
The EU is big enough to compete with the US and China.

Without the EU, the UK is about as big as California.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by garblegarble on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:30PM (#18912951)
>For instance, they built a really nice hallway at the Parliament, but when it came time to name it, they assigned 76 diplomats and the president of the EU to work through the name. That alone ended up costing something like 11 million euros.

Citation please? I can't find anything about that online, and I'd expect that to be a scandal that'd be easily found!

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by vardump on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:23AM (#18912282)
Yeah. Remove EU and I'm sure Russia will be happy to take over your little countries.

Individually European countries are pretty weak. They're only strong as a common entity.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lbj on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:25AM (#18912302)
Pretty sure NATO would survive the dismantling of some bureaucracy.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by msla on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:24PM (#18912875)
> Pretty sure NATO would survive the dismantling of some bureaucracy.

Then that's the next Brexit target, innit? Gin up some "grassroots" support for leaving that Mean Nasty NATO What Is Bad And Mean and just never you mind that the original talking points were translated from the Russian.

We know the Russians are working to dismantle everything on the European continent which could counterbalance their ambitions. NATO isn't any more immune than the EU is.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Ralfp on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:44PM (#18913105)
NATO is military pact. EU has economic advantages for member states like single market and trade union (so you can't create trade agreement in WTO sense with single EU member).
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by kazen44 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:12PM (#18913392)
Also, the EU has a common defence clause aswell, so all EU member states are practically under the same defence umberella, even if they aren't into NATO.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by raverbashing on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:22PM (#18912857)
Will it? Trump is already discussing how to step down

Divide and conquer, one of the oldest strategies. Yes, I'm sure "countries can defend themselves alone" yup, right

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Matticus_Rex on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:15PM (#18916632)
The EU is not the only thing keeping Europe from being deaf and blind, and Russia has much better targets than most of the EU if it was going to take expansion risks. This is needless fearmongering.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by ahallock on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:44PM (#18914249)
Not sure why you can't have an alliance among smaller countries without all the regulations. It seems orthogonal to me.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by morsma on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:35AM (#18912381)
Why on earth would Russia want to take over Denmark?
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Spacemolte on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:15PM (#18912785)
Why do any country want to invade other countries?
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by lbj on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:43AM (#18912443)
I think they're after our excess cinnamon
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by arama471 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:59AM (#18912612)
> This particular kerfuffle comes because the Danish food authority recently classified kanelsnegler, or cinnamon rolls, as an everyday pastry

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/12/eu-worrie...

Sounds like this is more of a "Denmark problem" than an "EU problem", unless you think the EU should simply not legislate the use of products that can cause health issues when present in high quantities in food (in this case cinnamon)

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by strictnein on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:04PM (#18912664)
How ever does the US survive this cinnamon overdose epidemic?

The reaction to a bad regulation being passed shouldn't be "oh, well, the government can just exempt your specific product from that regulation".

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by detaro on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:21PM (#18912841)
The US regulates Coumarin (which is the actually regulated substance, but commonly found in cinnamon), although differently. (Tonka beans, which contain it in very high quantities, and pure Coumarin aren't allowed to be used in food stuffs, but unlike in the EU there's no limit on the actual content of the end product)
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by ethelward on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:41PM (#18916857)
The US are doing many things well, but the quality of their food in general is not really an example to follow.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:53PM (#18913769)
You know why the EU overregulates? Because EU countries individually overregulate. And you know why that is? Because European people ask for new regulation every single time something goes wrong or might go wrong in the future or is a little bit unfair in some rare cases.

In the UK, we now have a debate about regulating portion sizes of ready meals, because some people are overweight. If you have voters and politicians who will even start to think about regulating this sort of thing, you're bound to end up with massive overregulation.

Sometimes the choice we have is between 28 different ridiculously convoluted and completely unnecessary laws or just one ridiculously convoluted and completely unnecessary law.

Your Unix metaphor is flawed. Countries are not special purpose tools. They don't do different things. They all do largely the same things in slightly different ways. So each country on its own already comes with all the issues that we criticise in monolythic software.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Swenrekcah on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:02PM (#18915893)
Don’t let the food processing companies derail that discussion. Decreasing portion size will just make people buy two. If anything should be regulated it would be the ingredients allowed in things that are called meals. Specifically sugar.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by Spacemolte on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:31PM (#18912966)
.. As a dane I completely disagree with this post. The EU is a big machine, and yes some parts of it may seem outdated and or obsolete, and some parts of it may even be so. That's how it is with big things, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, just that we need to keep improving it. I have a really, really hard time understanding people that says we should leave the EU, especially when they hand out the same, or similar examples that you just did.

Beside legislating the amount of cinnamon bakeries use, the EU handles so many important things that a small country like denmark will never have the resources to handle. This in no way means that they are perfect, but work to improve it instead.

We have this big project, it has been running in production for 15 years, it solves a lot of problems, but there are of course some technical debt that we should find the time to improve and fix. In my head you are the new guy telling everyone that we should rewrite it.

Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by megaman8 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:52AM (#18912535)
which is doubly ridiculous: cinnamon is actually one of the few parts (probably the only) of the cinnamon bun which is good for you: it's high in fiber and has been shown to have numerous health benefits.
Re:EU Copyright Directive is a catastrophe for free expressi... by morsma on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:41AM (#18912432)
As a Dane, I completely agree with this post.