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Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by wil421 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:16AM (#18911671)
This will be interesting. A Jeep Cherokee was hacked a couple years ago. The results are pretty bad. It cost Chrysler a lot of money in recalls to fix the issue.[1]

[1]https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed...

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by LeonM on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:37AM (#18911866)
There is a big difference between Chrystler (or any other car manufacturer) and Tesla in terms if impact.

Tesla's are designed to receive software updates on a regular basis using a cellular connection, whereas with every other car brand you'll need to bring the car to a certified dealership to have a mechanic (!= computer engineer) install the new firmware.

So: a nasty bug in a 'regular' car means the manufacturer must consider a recall of all affected cars, where Tesla will simply push an update to all cars in the field. This also means that Tesla can run the update before the vuln is disclosed.

Musk said he regards Tesla as a software company, their software just so happens to have a car attached to it. I highly doubt other car manufacturers see it that way, they probably see the software development as an expense.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by jlarocco on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:57AM (#18912044)
> So: a nasty bug in a 'regular' car means the manufacturer must consider a recall of all affected cars, where Tesla will simply push an update to all cars in the field. This also means that Tesla can run the update before the vuln is disclosed.

Maybe, but that sounds optimistic. What if the hack turns that off? What if the hack bricks a piece of hardware? Should remote updates be trusted if the car's been infected with malware?

> Musk said he regards Tesla as a software company, their software just so happens to have a car attached to it. I highly doubt other car manufacturers see it that way, they probably see the software development as an expense.

Software companies write most of the software bugs, so that doesn't make me feel any better...

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by wil421 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:10AM (#18912161)
I have a Grand Cherokee that receives OTA updates and has an LTE connection as do the new Wranglers. I can even use it for a hotspot. My parents Lexus can also receive OTA updates.

Your statement is untrue about OTA updates. Tesla might have been the first to do it in 2012 but most companies are doing it already or plan to.

GM and Ford plan it for 2020 and Mercedes and BMW have announced it in the past year. The Japanese makers are usually more reluctant to adopt new tech.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by SEJeff on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:59AM (#18912614)
The software updates in Tesla generally only happen over Wifi, not cellular. I had to lay conduit from my home to my garage, drill through the masonry, run some more conduit inside the garage, pull CAT6 through from my basement through the conduit to my garage... Then fish the cable through the ceiling and mount a Unifi AC Pro access point in my garage because I wanted the latest autopilot update. Yeah...
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by fastball on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:09PM (#18912721)
You definitely didn't need to do that.

There are much cheaper APs than a Unifi AC Pro.

Which tells me you probably could've saved money in some other ways as well.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by tk75x on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:51PM (#18913179)
He should have parked within range of his house wifi and updated while sipping a beverage.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by SEJeff on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:22PM (#18913484)
I had the AC Pro in my home, and had just bought an AC HD to upgrade it. So I had a "spare" AC Pro just laying around, as you do when you computer for a living.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by goobynight on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:09PM (#18913363)
"had to"
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by justin66 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:20PM (#18912829)
Interesting that a range extender wasn't sufficient.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by reaperducer on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:30PM (#18912954)
with every other car brand you'll need to bring the car to a certified dealership to have a mechanic (!= computer engineer) install the new firmware.

This is not true. Some FiatChrysler vehicles have OTA updates. And if FCA is doing it, others are, too.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by joezydeco on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:27AM (#18911774)
Seems like Tesla could fix security holes remotely. Chrysler could not.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by LoSboccacc on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:36AM (#18911863)
assuming it's a remote exploit then you can't trust the update code that's on board, because that could be compromised and just pretending to run the update.

when a system is breached with methods that don't leave a signature a clean reinstall from scratch is the only option. once one to all your system are potentially breached by remote exploits it's recall time.

local exploit that require access to the car innards could potentially be patched over the air if the method allows the owner to know if the car was breached into. then it'd be update for safe car and recall for breached cars.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by wil421 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:05AM (#18912106)
My car, the Grand Cherokee, can get OTA updates. Not sure if the 2014 Cherokee is able to get them. According to autoweek Cherokee owners could download the update themselves and install from a USB stick.[1] Chrysler issued the TSB to try and force people to come in and get an update who couldn’t or wouldn’t do it themselves.

[1]https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/your-jeep-cherokee-vul...

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by rootusrootus on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:29AM (#18911797)
The ability to remotely patch a car seems like a double edged sword. Hasn't Tesla already had at least one example of introducing a bug through OTA updates?
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by HeyLaughingBoy on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:32AM (#18911827)
I consider that an issue with the software quality, not with the update mechanism. The bug would still have been introduced even if it required a trip to the dealer to plug in a programming cable.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by falcolas on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:38AM (#18911871)
At least, when it's updated by a dealer and a cable, you know when to expect changed behavior. With OTA, the vehicle's driving behavior could (and has) quite literally change overnight.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by HALtheWise on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:56AM (#18912034)
I'm pretty sure you still need manual confirmation in the car, and it shows you patch notes when you next get in, so you should have reason to expect changed behavior.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by close04 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:32AM (#18912354)
The only problem I can see with the OTA updates is that they remove the need for physical access to the car. This is very convenient and allows for fast updates but it does slightly decrease the security and lowers the bar for successfully hacking the car remotely.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by stanmancan on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:34AM (#18911846)
That same bug could have been introduced whether or not the update was OTA. At least they could fix it OTA as well...!
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by Angostura on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:56AM (#18912035)
Assuming the attacker doesn't devise some malware that silently blocks subsequent OTA updates.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by moftz on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:17AM (#18912224)
All it would take would be for Tesla to send out a verification check to get software signatures from all running that have phoned home anytime in the last 6 months. If something doesn't match, Tesla calls you up and tells you your car is fucked and to come get it serviced. If your car doesn't phone home yet still is pulling data from the internet, Tesla would know and suspect it's compromised.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by jcranmer on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:52AM (#18912529)
And what prevents the compromised Tesla system from lying about its software signatures? When you have a compromised system, literally everything that system tells you or is capable of telling you is suspect.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by dmurray on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:12PM (#18912746)
Well, you could fill all of the unused storage space on the system with random noise specified by you, then ask the system to regurgitate that noise to you (or more practically, tell you a function calculated from some set of bytes you specify). That would require that an attacker physically alter the hardware to defeat your verification process.

You can maybe come up with a version of this that uses a HSM, or simply some part of the firmware that is read-only.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by fastball on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:10PM (#18912731)
You can't fake cryptographic signatures.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by jcranmer on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:15PM (#18913418)
Cryptography is not a magic bullet. The assertion of a signature is that "Private Key Bar says Hash(plaintext) = Foo." But who is the private key; who is actually computing the hash of the plaintext? Note that practically every cryptographic system in existence has been broken at one time or another, and most of those breaks are not in the mathematical primitives of cryptography but in the wider ecosystem of the procedures of how these primitives are combined into a full system.

In the threat model I describe, the attacker who controls the car's system can lie to the server about what is on its system. It also has access to anything that's distributed to the car itself (such as a per-car private key!), and presumably it has oracle knowledge in the form of what the server expects the correct hash to be. A compromised car can freely lie about the hashes of anything on its own system as necessary; it can freely sign any attestation with a per-car private key; it can parrot the expected hashes of files distributed to other cars. Even if you sent watermarked files to cars, the compromised car could remember the hashes of those watermarks to parrot them back later.

So, pray tell, where do you imagine the cryptographic signature actually adds value? As in, how can you pick the owner of the private key and the owner of the hashing process such that a near-omnipotent compromised car cannot fool the server?

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by moftz on Thursday January 17, 2019 @02:58PM (#18934022)
The private key would need to be stored in some read only media like a smartcard or a PROM chip. A boot environment that can only be externally programmed would need to be the first thing to start up and check the integrity of the filesystem. It would hash it, timestamp it, and send it to an HSM to sign it with a secured private key, then transmit the signed hash out and hand off the rest of the startup to the main OS. Tesla gets the hash, verifies the signature so they can check whether or not the OS is compromised. Because the bootloader chip sits outside the control of the main OS, you can ensure that as long as someone doesn't rip out the ECU, the filesystem check is legit. Another step would be to allow the HSM to cycle in new keys using a KEK. The HSM would have a master private key that is only used for KEK updates and a lesser private key that it uses for signing hashes.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by dcbadacd on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:01PM (#18913833)
It's super hard to ensure something with 100% confidence, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be at least some basic integrity checks.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by NotHereNotThere on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:51PM (#18913180)
How so? Telsa would most likely communicate with an API on the car and not directly running file hashes remotely.

What prevents an attacker from overriding some validateFile("path","hash") call to always return 0 ?

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by fastball on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:00PM (#18915188)
Because you could ask for a checksum of the firmware and if it doesn't return the right hash you know something isn't right.

You also never store the hash, so once a user has gained access to the car it's impossible to get the right hash (as you would've had to modify the firmware/filesystem/etc in some way to gain entry).

You would also need to include a timestamp/car serial in the hash so that you couldn't reuse an old hash from before your entry (that you had MITM'd) or use a hash from a different car that still had its integrity.

Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by vibrio on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:44AM (#18911931)
Not at all a Tech/software/hardware guy, but based on my experience with OTA firmware updates with my Netgear router, I'd be cautious.
Re:Pwn2Own Vancouver 2019: Tesla, VMWare, Microsoft, and more by 282883392 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:31PM (#18913558)
Teslas get regular OTA updates. They sometimes fail, but they've been remotely patching their vehicles for years.