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Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:29PM (#18870106)
Why is MTV a "pit"? Decent-ish downtown with a Michelin starred restaurant, plenty of parks, good library, relatively bike-able, rapidly densifying and adding housing. Caltrain goes to SF, you can drive easily north to Napa or Tahoe or south to all the beaches. It doesn't have any world-class attractions, hip nightclubs, renowned museums, or acclaimed architecture but that's not the point of the city, and honestly most cities in the world don't have those things. Overall it's a pretty good place to live if you ignore the price of housing - which is a regional problem.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by groby_b on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:25PM (#18871013)
You mean there is a restaurant with a star? Hold the presses. Yes, there's more than one restaurant. The quality for the vast majority of them is barely scratching at "mediocre". At pricing that's well beyond "ridiculous luxury".

As for "parks" - that's not a park. That's a quarter city block with trees (Cuesta Park. Which is by far the biggest "park").

"Rapidly densifying". /lolsob. Adding a few four-story buildings isn't "densifying". "adding housing" - sure, if you don't mind paying a fortune for mediocre places. 1br for the amount of money that buys you a 3br w/ pool in LA.

And sure, I can drive to Napa. Or Tahoe. Or south to the beaches. But that's not Mountain View, that's Northern California. That's like saying Gary, Indiana is a great city because you can drive to Chicago.

Culturally it is almost completely dead. Art? Music? Dance? Just forget it. In terms of diversity, yeah, no.

Unless you like living in a culturally dead suburban monoculture, it's not a city I'd recommend to anybody.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:56AM (#18871839)
> You mean there is a restaurant with a star? Hold the presses.

How many cities of a similar size have even 1?

> Art?

I'll grant you this one. No great museums (maybe the Computer History museum?) or art galleries in MTV.

> Music?

Shoreline Amphitheatre? It's a rather large music venue by the water. If you want a smaller venue, Dana Street Roasting Company has live performers every weekend. The city does free concerts a few times a year.

> (Cuesta Park. Which is by far the biggest "park").

Did you just completely forget the Shoreline recreational area? You can learn how to sail, windsurf, and stand-up paddleboard there.

> Dance?

Two nightclubs and a (salsa?) dance club in downtown. MVCPA for performances. Is that unimpressive? It's a city with 80k population, how much exactly are you expecting?

> That's like saying Gary, Indiana is a great city because you can drive to Chicago.

That would be a true statement if Gary had Mountain View's economy, weather, crime rates, and Michelin-starred restaurants.

> In terms of diversity, yeah, no.

What kind of diversity are we talking? There's plenty of people with varied cultural backgrounds and national origins.

> culturally dead suburban monoculture,

I'm not sure you've lived in an actual culturally dead suburban monoculture. There are some other towns I could introduce you to. I can also introduce you to towns that are actually a "pit" :-)

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by sampo on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:55AM (#18873221)
> How many cities of a similar size have even 1?

Taking the first Italian city from this list that has 7x,xxx population, turns out to be Fiumicino, and seems to have two 1-star restaurants. This was a kind of random sample of size 1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Italy

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:05AM (#18873856)
I wasn't implying 0 other cities of similar size have Michelin stars. Heck there's a small town in Napa valley with 5k population, with a 3 star restaurant, so even more stars/capita than Fiumicino :-). But of all the ~70-120k population towns in the world (even excluding developing nations), I'd wager proportionally not that many have Michelin stars.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by kkarakk on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:09AM (#18872533)
i know nothing about the area but just casually reading this thread and your counter arguments,the fundamental point remains - why is it so bad when Google is there? why hasn't Google done anything to improve living conditions outside of it's plex? improve the art scene,improve the food scene etc etc it has significant power to do so.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jhedwards on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:07AM (#18871876)
What city would you recommend? I’m genuinely curious because I thought Mountain View was alright but now you’re making me feel like I’m missing out on cities with amazing parks, cheap gourmet food, and lots of culture. The closest I’ve had to that was Changsha, and that’s not considered a nice place to live by a long shot.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by groby_b on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:29PM (#18876489)
Los Angeles. New York.

You want MTV sized? Asheville. Boulder. Greenville. Santa Fe.

Slightly bigger: Ann Arbor. Berkeley. Cambridge. Lafayette.

Good chunk bigger: Savannah (140k), Madison (250k)

Smaller: Bozeman. Port Chester.

Elsewhere: Plenty of cities all over Europe that are in the 100k pop range and _much_ more vibrant than MTV.

The point is, Google's presence doesn't magically improve the place. It's still a bland suburbia, like, yes, 99% of US cities this size. Google's presence won't improve SJC, either.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:32PM (#18880262)
Upvoted for the city suggestions - that's really helpful. But I'm still going to vigorously disagree that MTV is "bland suburbia" :-), even if it's not better than these cities (and I personally did not enjoy Savannah when I visited). There's a spectrum of city interestingness - all I'm arguing is that MTV is very much not at the boring end of it. It might be somewhere in the middle.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by groby_b on Friday January 11, 2019 @12:52PM (#18885289)
As you can see by my "99%" statement, my cut-off point is simply at a different point on that scale :)

You're right that there are cities that are worse than Mountain View. What's upsetting about it is not merely the blandness, but the fact there could be tremendous potential. A rural city of the same size, with a historically uniform population and a relatively small tax base, has very little choice. Mountain View does, and they squander it.

But even if they didn't, "it could be worse" has never been a statement that attracted me to a city ;)

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by mav3rick on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:01AM (#18872069)
There are far more interesting cities in the US and the world than MTV. Berlin is one of them. In the US I like Austin and San Diego.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:06AM (#18873864)
That's moving the goalposts though. I was originally disputing the categorization of MTV as a "pit". I'm not at all arguing it's comparable to Berlin - that would be crazy.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by mav3rick on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:56PM (#18876140)
You also asked what cities would you recommend. I recommended some :)
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:34PM (#18880270)
Nope, that was someone else. I'm just defending MTV being called a "pit" and a suburban dystopia - it's not the most interesting city in the world but it has interesting parts and tons of opportunities not available elsewhere.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by kkarakk on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:11AM (#18872545)
Some cities just never develop "good" living conditions for values of restaurant diversity,art and things to do - whether out of apathy or bad luck.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by akhilcacharya on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:44AM (#18871792)
>Culturally it is almost completely dead. Art? Music? Dance? Just forget it. In terms of diversity, yeah, no.

> Unless you like living in a culturally dead suburban monoculture, it's not a city I'd recommend to anybody.

What level of Maslow's hierarchy is this because I'm legitimately becoming concerned I'm neither wealthy enough or educated enough to understand or appreciate any of this and it's scaring me.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by pm90 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:49AM (#18872024)
Wtf? People like different things from their cities. Some people like living in cities with lots of different options for entertainment, lots of diversity. Others like the quietness, calm and cleanliness of suburbia.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by groby_b on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:40PM (#18876586)
Most art galleries have showings open to the public. Museums are fairly affordable. Your local community college will have dance and theatre performances on the cheap.

Well, unless you're in a city like Mountain View, which lacks these things - but even here, the public library carries excellent recordings of music/dance performances, and has wonderful art books. There's also https://artsandculture.google.com/ for a vast number of the world's greatest art pieces.

It's really not a question of wealth.

Neither is it "education". You don't need education to appreciate beauty, and there are quite a few pieces that have a beauty that's immediately accessible even without a background in art or dance. Some art might not resonate with you -- and that's OK. Find the stuff you like, ignore the stuff you dislike.

Sure, you can go from there and get an education, and it will open more avenues for you. But it's not necessary. And as far as Maslow goes - setting aside that the "hierarchy" isn't - I'd put art at "Love and belonging". It's a connection to people across space and time, and it can unlock deep, profound emotions.

Give it a try, don't be scared!

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by seppin on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:45PM (#18871108)
> Culturally it is almost completely dead. Art? Music? Dance? Just forget it. In terms of diversity, yeah, no.

Yep, when I say to people that the south bay is completely devoid of anything resembling culture they still look at me funny. Until they go, that is.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:14AM (#18871903)
> devoid of anything resembling culture they still look at me funny

Because it's hyperbole - it's not a literally true statement. The Bay Area is culturally middling. It's no Paris or NY or even Atlanta - unless we count Valley tech culture's influence on the world, which obviously is immense. But it has its share of museums, theaters, music venues, and good food.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by seppin on Monday January 14, 2019 @02:12AM (#18901241)
It's strip malls and chain restaurants with far too much concrete everywhere. And for what you do get, absurdly overpriced.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by hadlock on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:10PM (#18870363)
MTV just kind of blends in with every other white middle-upper class neighborhood in America, it is as bland as off-brand vanilla ice cream to the end of blunting your senses. To a lot of people living in such a place is a huge mark of success... to many other people, that is the environment they grew up in and are trying to escape. See also: the movie Pleasantville.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by jogjayr on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:57PM (#18870602)
"bland" != "pit". I can understand being bored by MTV (everyone likes different things) but your quality of life is not going to be poor. And for people interested in skiing, wine, and outdoor recreation on the weekends, it's far from "bland". It's pretty awesome to have world-class slopes, wineries, national and state parks, and beaches in a 3-hour drive radius. I can't think of many places in the world that offer all that + a booming tech industry (mind this applies to many cities in the Bay Area, not just MTV).

One of the themes of Pleasantville was the insularity and closed-off-ness of the town - literally in a geographical sense (only at the end do buses start going to out of town). Whereas MTV conveniently places you close to awesome things that you can access easily, while still having a good career.

There are other equally prosperous and thriving cities in the US that I would consider to be a distinct step down in terms of quality of life.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by mc32 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:27PM (#18870459)
I don't think blandness is bad in and of itself. One could describe many places all over the world as "bland" from an insider's perspective but perhaps interesting from an outsider's perspective. Not only that, but may cities and towns which experience turmoil, econ decline, etc., would sell themselves off for "bland" success.

Bland means you've made it. Singapore is "bland" Yokohama is "bland". One could say life is not "bland" in the Donbass region. Santiago might be bland, but Rio de Janeiro is not bland. I'd wager many of the non-bland places would trade an arm to be successfully bland. Busan used to be gritty. Now it's a "bland" city.

Furthermore, even foreign transplants who settle in foreign places be they from India, China, Russia, Nigeria, etc., if they can, they settle in these so-called 'bland' cities, if they can. I have not yet heard anyone going to Paris saying, you know what, I'm going to settle in one of the exciting arrondisements --nevermind those other places most people gravitate to.

Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by Apocryphon on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:52AM (#18871820)
Neither Austin nor Portland is bland. You don't have to talk about outliers like NYC, or NOLA- there are plenty of mid-sized, second-tier, or middling burgs in the U.S. that are more exciting than San Jose and have comparable standards of living.
Re:Google transformed Mountain View, is San Jose next? by usaar333 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:35AM (#18872180)
> MTV just kind of blends in with every other white middle-upper class neighborhood in America,

Mountain view isn't as exciting as living in a cultural center (SF and Oakland being them), but it's a lot better than most of the places you compare it to.

First, it's actually majority non white, meaning you get a lot of cultural diversity you'd miss in elsewhere "white middle upper class neighborhoods".

Secondly, has access to great outdoors and weather. (Not all places in the city limits, but close enough).

Interesting tech scene (especially if you count next door Palo Alto)

Decent downtown for a city its size.

And reasonably dense by American suburb standards. While not SF, it also isn't full of the mcmansion type housing found in other affluent suburbs.