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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by pavlov on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:52AM (#18816568)
Actually it isn't. The EU Court of Justice ruled last month that the UK can unilaterally stop the process known as "Article 50" and stay in the Union. (Previously it was unclear whether Britain could stay in without reapplying for membership.)

All it takes is a vote by Parliament and the political will to admit that it was an insanely stupid idea to ask people to vote on a deal that didn't exist yet.

Countries that have previously held referendums on joining the EU have done so after negotiations were 100% completed. Britain should have done the same when leaving: negotiate a complete Brexit deal first, then vote on that.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by steanne on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:03PM (#18816684)
> Countries that have previously held referendums on joining the EU have done so after negotiations were 100% completed. Britain should have done the same when leaving: negotiate a complete Brexit deal first, then vote on that.

that was refused.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/03/eu-commissi...

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by detaro on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:10PM (#18816759)
Wouldn't a second referendum be basically the same effect? Vote now on a negotiation result, with the ability to stay in the EU if that's the voting outcome. But that's not how it had been sold and structured from the start, so now it's seen as going back on the result of the first referendum. (and it wasn't established beforehand that revoking the Article 50 notice is possible, so it's somewhat understandable that wasn't the initial structure - although if it had been taken seriously, that possibly could have been established)
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Tsubasachan on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:35PM (#18817036)
I hope you are not suggesting such fundamental issues should be meticulously planned beforehand...
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:55AM (#18816596)
> The EU Court of Justice ruled last month that the UK can unilaterally stop the process known as "Article 50" and stay in the Union

Shouldn’t every member constantly threaten exit, then, whenever it wants more goodies?

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by JeremyBanks on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:57AM (#18816622)
They're not being offered more goodies, just to remain under the existing terms. The ongoing negotiations are about the terms if they do leave, where there will certainly be a net loss of goodies.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Neracked on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:12PM (#18816786)
> Just to remain under the existing terms

Except they have already lost two major European agencies (European Medicines Agency and European Banking Authority) that are being relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.

[1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018...

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by n4r9 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:52PM (#18820135)
> The two agencies are currently based in London, in the UK, and need to be relocated in the context of the UK's withdrawal from the EU (Brexit).

This is a proposal for relocation if Brexit goes ahead. If it doesn't go ahead, there's no point relocating.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by angott on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:03PM (#18816677)
Given the impact of the whole Brexit process on the British economy since the referendum date, I don't really see many EU countries willing to repeat the experiment again.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Silhouette on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:01PM (#18820216)
That fits the mood, at least among the pro-Remain press and social circles, but I'm not sure how objectively true it is.

Based on the facts we can now measure, quite a lot of the negative predictions from before the referendum about the results of a Leave vote have not proved to be accurate. We haven't gone anywhere near entering a recession, there weren't emergency budgets costing households thousands of pounds, house prices haven't collapsed, etc. Inevitably this also reduces the credibility of the same sources when they now predict severe negative effects over the longer term based on similar models and assumptions.

At least in some respects, it appears that the UK economy may be doing better than it has for some time. In some other respects, it's doing worse, but whether the cause is Brexit-related or other factors like austerity or increasingly protectionist global trade is unclear.

Probably the two biggest economic effects that have surely been triggered by Brexit itself are the softening of Sterling and the shift in migration patterns, but those are also areas where the change isn't inherently bad. Certainly there are other negative results as well, but a lot of those are more due to uncertainty and negative sentiment than anything that has actually happened so far, so while they are clearly bad for the UK and neither our government nor the EU leadership is going to win any prizes for effective government and leadership any time soon, it wouldn't necessarily be the case that another state considering leaving in the future would mishandle the process as badly as the UK and EU have this time.

It's a fascinating social experiment to watch, particularly as someone who is conflicted on the issue and has a lot of friends and family on both sides of the debate, because if you step back and try to look at reality from a neutral point of view, there's a lot of confirmation bias and selective reporting happening on both sides.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by hadrien01 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:00PM (#18816654)
The UK declared Brexit after Cameron obtained a special deal with the EU. They won't get anything like that if they come back after a Brexit fiasco, they don't have any negotiating power anymore.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by coldtea on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:10PM (#18816757)
Agreements for trade aside (which they can negotiate with EU still, and they will), why would they want to "come back"? To have their monetary police decided with undue Berlin influence and restricted lawmaking sovereignty?
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Tomte on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:30PM (#18816974)
No EU hater has so far been able to explain to me how exactly Germany is forcing all other member states to acquiesce to a monetary policy that's only in Germany's interest.

Please explain in detail how Berlin is overcoming the fact that it is vastly outnumbered in the deciding (and voting) bodies.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by sonnyblarney on Monday January 07, 2019 @08:52AM (#18845036)
This is really very simple.

The Euro has strict monetary policy. This favours economies like those of Germany, and makes it very difficult for economies that often need to dilute their currencies to stay competitive.

In a 'currency union', basically, there can be no shenanigans. It has to be a 'strict' currency, because it's not like the French are going to allow the Poles to just start 'printing Euros'. So, by the very nature of the shared currency, it's going to be strict.

When Italy, Spain and Greece start to have trouble making bond payments - this poses a problem. They can't just start printing Liras or Drachmas anymore.

When their economies are faltering - they would normally print money, dilute their currency, meaning everyone in the country is taking a secret pay cut, retirees get less benefits vis-a-vis other countries. But it's stealthy. Nobody sees it. But in Euros ... everything would have to be repriced for the economy to remain competitive. People have to accept lower pay. Retirees lower benefits. That is politically impossible.

And so you end up with high unemployment for a very long time while it sinks in that they are poor.

Germany was very wary of entering into the Euro because of their historical fears of currency devaluation. It was a big thing for them, to the point that it was a major factor in the rise of Nazism, and that whole WW2 thing. So when they did it, there had to be controls.

Most citizens of Europe would prefer a more trade-like situation, not a true political union. The EU is ultimately an elitist project and it's showing serious signs of strain.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by coldtea on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:23PM (#18817576)
By using its economic and diplomatic might, unofficial channels, backroom deals, and friendly (or bought) satellite countries that vote the way they're told.

The nominal equality (e.g. re: number of votes) is like that old Anatole France quote: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.".

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Tomte on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:47PM (#18817880)
Strangely, neither France, nor the UK or any other of the large European countries could ever counter that with their own unofficial channels and backroom deals. They must be real Gentlemen, not to stoop that low!
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by DanBC on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:20PM (#18816866)
> To have their monetary police decided with undue Berlin influence and restricted lawmaking sovereignty?

We're still going to have those. We just won't be at the table to have any kind of influence.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by icebraining on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:27PM (#18816952)
Agreements for trade are not a boolean issue; you can have better or worse ones. They could want to come back if offered a better deal than they get by being outside.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:58PM (#18820193)
> Shouldn’t every member constantly threaten exit, then, whenever it wants more goodies?

Brexit has given Britain a choice between (1) the same EU goodies (cancel Art. 50), (2) fewer EU goodies (take the negotiated exit deal), and (3) no EU goodies (no deal Brexit).

As a strategy for “more goodies”, it's a complete disaster.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by xamolxix on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:58AM (#18816638)
> Shouldn’t every member constantly threaten exit, then, whenever it wants more goodies?

No, they aren't held against their will. It's an (ever closer) union of friends.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by yakshaving_jgt on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:58AM (#18816631)
Does this not happen already somewhat implicitly? In the same way that everyone having nuclear arms keeps the world peaceful.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by johannes1234321 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:03PM (#18816685)
From a legal perspective it might be as easy. From a political stance this is near impossible. No leading British politician offers a narrative supporting the EU in any way. Theresa May doesn't really like Brexit, but likes limiting immigration and has a position of "the people voted, so we have to deliver", opposition leader Corbyn says "Europe is okay, but EU is to capitalism, but we need more socialism", Rees-Mogg and other Brexiteers claim that a good Brexit was possible. Others are not as loud and present. If Parliament now votes to cancel Brexit this will lead to riots from hard core Brexiteers, both in Parliament and on the roads of some regions of especially England. To cancel Brexit you need leading politicians to admit they were stupid and form a positive narrative.
Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:05PM (#18818735)
> To cancel Brexit you need leading politicians to admit they were stupid and form a positive narrative.

Which may not be possible. It's far easier, after a turnover of leadership, to say "they were stupid", than it is for a leader to admit, "we were stupid".

I'm not in the UK, and I'm not that current on UK politics, but I think there is a bare possibility that this could happen. It would take a no-confidence vote against May, though, and probably before March.

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by johannes1234321 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:19PM (#18818902)
Such a turnover would need an potential leader and such a leader is not in sight. Even if there were such a character they'd have to deal with characters like Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson who will always claim that a "proper" Brexit were possible if the UK would show the "strength" against EU and not being as "weak" as Mrs. May.

Mind also that maybe a majority is pro remain now, but there is a notable amount of people who "want control" and by the Brexit vote "finally were heard" (even if consequences are bad it was their free and independent decision!) and where it is really hard to convince them to admit that their vote was "wrong" and tontolarate that other "smart people" in parliament overrule that will of "The People", again. This teaches those people, that voting doesn't matter.

In my opinion from a British perspective the best thing would be the software possible Brexit and then rejoin in a few years. However a soft Brexit isn't in the EU's interest. The EU has to distinguish between member and non-member. (While Norway and Switzerland historically have such complicated in between positions)

The only other way would be Brexiter to admit their failure and a charismatic leader without previous relevance who manages to unite the big divide with a magic wand. But I don't see such a person.