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Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by skybrian on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:00AM (#18816059)
It's interesting how the trend in newer OSes seems to be towards client apps running in some sort of VM. Windows runs Linux. Some Chromebooks run both Linux and Android.

I wonder if we'll get to the point where hardly anything is a native app and the concept doesn't matter much anymore? The host OS just exists to run guest OSes.

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:51AM (#18816556)
Why not? The history of computing is about isolating applications, really. Why do we have Virtual Memory? Because it allows each process to have an independent address space. Why do we have preemptive multitasking? Because it allows each process to behave as though it is the only task running. Why is hardware virtualization so great? Namespacing and containers?

I think Casey Muratori did a good job outlining the case for removing the OS from the equation entirely in "The thirty-Million Line Problem" [0]. He describes a hardware architecture where standardized ABI and hardware virtualization replaces the OS and drivers, allowing each process to behave as if it was the only software on the computer, as it was in the olden days with platforms like the C64. The closest thing to an OS would be a hypervisor, which should be the kind of thing an enterprising young programmer could write in their spare time in a month.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZRE7HIO3vk

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by hawski on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:42PM (#18820059)
But isn't it also a problem? We not only want to do things contained within a program, we also went them to cooperate. Don't we also want accessibility? I think that middle ground is needed, but currently pendulum is inclined in other direction.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by evv on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:15PM (#18819342)
I think we've seen a proliferation of one concept, often disguised as many things: the container for a program.

A long time ago, the program was your whole OS, you'd boot into it. The computer is the container.

Then we introduced operating systems, allowing a safer container for bad programs. The program is the container.

One type of program became extremely popular because it enabled delivery of a program via the internet. The web app is the container.

In the web world, frameworks like React have become incredibly popular because they allow people to break up apps into smaller components that can be shared. The component is the container.

Of course, on the back end, similar needs have led to Docker/K8s. The container is the container.

Given that everything in our world is a container, you'd think we would have better tools for composing them. As a web developer, I should be able to embed other web apps and communicate with them like I do with my React components. And I'd also like to be able to boot directly into a web app, and embed native programs and virtual operating systems.

Even when it comes to basics: most operating systems other than Chrome still have yet to natively support the web as a peer of traditional programs.. Electron should't be necessary. Likewise, environments like Docker and VirtualBox should be baked in to the OS that we boot.

The point is, as an industry we need to collectively pull our heads out of our asses, and realize that we'd be much better off refactoring our magnificent existing containers, rather than attempting to invent new ones. (I'm looking at you, iOS/Android..)

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by glennpratt on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:26AM (#18816278)
ChromeOS and Android are Linux. Android compatibility comes from a container.

https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform2/+/mas...

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by pjmlp on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:42AM (#18816442)
Having Linux kernel is pretty transparent for app developers.

They don't care which kernel powers Chrome processes, or ART.

On Android's case, Linux syscalls aren't even part of the official stable APIs.

https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by slrz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:41PM (#18821793)
OTOH, neither is the ARM ISA. Yet, once you try to bring a non-ARM Android device to the masses, you will soon discover the rule of Hyrum's Law.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by pjmlp on Friday January 04, 2019 @01:11AM (#18822304)
I have plenty of apps running on my non-ARM Android devices.

As for Hyrum's Law, since Android 7, any misbehaved app that tries to use non-sanctioned NDK APIs gets killed by the OS.

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by Wowfunhappy on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:58AM (#18816639)
But it does mean a Chrome OS device can run Linux software without a full-on Virtual Machine, since the underlying kernel is the same.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by pjmlp on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:02PM (#18817334)
It also means that they can be ported to other OSes with zero dependencies on Linux.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by Someone1234 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:06AM (#18816112)
> I wonder if we'll get to the point where hardly anything is a native app and the concept doesn't matter much anymore?

You mean a web browser? We're there.

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by hermitdev on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:14PM (#18818843)
Linux on Windows, i.e. WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) is not a VM - it's a separate system compatibility layer, somewhat akin to what MS SQL Server does to abstract away to OS to also be able to run on Linux now.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by newnewpdro on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:28PM (#18818977)
The parent may very well have been referring to Linux on Windows, in the form of a Linux VM. They didn't mention WSL at all.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by pavlov on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:49PM (#18819640)
Back in 1991 IBM bet their operating system strategy on a project called “Workplace OS” which was supposed to be exactly that, although it didn’t include a VM:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_OS

“Above the PNS, the operating system personalities run in the form of user-space servers that execute DOS, OS/2, and UNIX—with further intentions to support Microsoft Windows, OS/400, AIX, Taligent, and MacOS personalities.”

It’s been called one of the most expensive failures in operating system development.

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by iKevinShah on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:46PM (#18817137)
"I wonder if we'll get to the point where hardly anything is a native app and the concept doesn't matter much anymore? The host OS just exists to run guest OSes."

This already happens in server infrastructure where the host OS just exists to run the guest OSes(VMs) and now, lately, the host OS just exists to run guest containers.

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by pjmlp on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:40AM (#18816413)
Actually they are catching up with the language environments on mainframes.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by piotrkubisa on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:08PM (#18816729)
Personally, I look forward to QubesOS-feel [0] to be more mainstream and user-friendly - access to USB drives in secure VM, interoperable applications between various OSes and easy way to create a disposable disk/VM...

[0] https://www.qubes-os.org/

Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by ofrzeta on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:25AM (#18816271)
I've been waiting for this more than 20 years :) http://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/ Now we are finally there.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by MikusR on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:39PM (#18818467)
Linux on windows has no Linux in it.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by michaelmrose on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:34PM (#18819504)
To be clear chromebooks ARE linux.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by hawski on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:44PM (#18820079)
It's a technical detail. It may be quite a big detail, but it's covered by a huge elephant.
Re:Google’s Fuchsia OS Confirmed to Have Android App Support... by gruez on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:33PM (#18819498)
>The host OS just exists to run guest OSes.

so a hypervisor?