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Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:43PM (#18812880)
Toyota also makes premium cars. The average selling price of a new vechile in the US is 36,000$ per year which means the market for premium cars is huge.

Now, the question becomes can you sell a premium Android phone? And based on current sales not really. Companies have flagship products, but they don’t sell that many of them because they don’t have significant advantages over far cheaper devices.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by ajross on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:54PM (#18812917)
> Now, the question becomes can you sell a premium Android phone?

Sorry... why does that become the question? The issue at hand is whether Apple can justify a trillion dollar market cap (now down to about $750B) on its almost-entirely-premium phone sales. Whether it has meaningful competition in the premium phone sector isn't really relevant. Android can be nothing but Huawei junk and AAPL would still be overpriced.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:19AM (#18813248)
> why does that become the question?

If Apple becomes BMW with several other companies eating up significant shares of the premium market then Apples market share drops. However, if Premium Android phones continue to be minor players the Apple can continue to be a dominant player.

Currently Android is actually losing market share in many countries even as Apple raises prices.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by ajross on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:06AM (#18815588)
And I repeat: Android market share could drop to zero and the existing size of the market for $500+ phones would not be enough to justify AAPL's trillion dollar market cap. Like most tech stocks, Apple's cap had priced in the expectation of growth. But that's what this warning is about: no growth. So the cap is going to shrink to a level that the market feels justifies the sustained revenue (currently $680B, but that's no doubt going to bounce around a lot in the coming weeks).

It's not about who's phones are better.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:12PM (#18817457)
Apples P/E ratio is 12 to 20 that’s not a growth stock. In the start of 2008 when it hit 40 that was growth territory. But it’s fallen as low as 9 in 2013.

And that’s ignoring the 180 billion or so in assets on a 684.07B market cap. The only way those numbers are rational is if people are expecting sales to tank.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by ajross on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:17PM (#18819363)
It's not a growth stock now. It was before. Are you missing the part where it's dropped from $1T to $750M over the past three months, and now to $680 given the earnings warning today (which basically validates the earlier motion)? It's literally the subject of discussion...
Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:08PM (#18819812)
At 1T it’s still not really a growth stock.

20 P/E is the edge of growth. Consider a utility with steady 5% returns + inflation is often an appealing option for people looking for steady returns. This always depends on what options are available.

Further the entire market is down which changes expectations. The Dow going from 26,800 to 23,300 would mean a drop from 1T down to ~869 billion.

Yep, people think Apple is slightly worse off now. But, Apple has been stuck as a relaticly high volatility value stock for a while. The expectation is lots of profit, but little real growth.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by ajross on Thursday January 03, 2019 @08:47PM (#18821304)
That... what? That's just wrong. Look upthread for your example that started this whole thing. BMW's P/E is less than 6! Toyota's is around 7. Apple is absolutely priced like a growth stock. No, it's not as high as better growth bets are, but it's absolutely not priced by earnings. It just isn't.
Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:08PM (#18821399)
Both those car companies are facing serious long term issues. Yes, the numbers today look ok, but expectations are not looking good.

  US MBW market share, is just one indicator.
  2014	2.06%
  2015	1.98%
  2016	1.79%
  2017	1.77%
 
They are also shrinking in Europe, though this is offset by emerging markets. But, relative to the industry they need a turn around.

TOYOTA: Car decline overshadows light-truck gain https://www.autonews.com/article/20181002/RETAIL01/181009878...

With a slightly down market:

  Dominion Electric is 16.08
  Proctor and gamble is 23.66 
Proctor and gamble has some growth but it’s stock is up 50% in the last decade. It’s doubled in the last 20 years which is some growth but not much.
Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by dfischer on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:24AM (#18813016)
It’s not overpriced because people agree and pay for its fair value.
Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by sturgill on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:37AM (#18813088)
The question is if enough people “agree and pay for its fair value” to justify the existing market cap. And Apple just told investors, “nope.”

-typed from my iPhone...

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by tdb7893 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:03AM (#18812944)
The average price doesn't really tell us anything. I got that the luxury car share is less than 6% when googling quickly. If the luxury phone market is only 6 percent and Apple doesn't even have all of that it wouldn't look good for them. Though one caveat is I have no idea what I'm talking about here. https://www.google.com/search?ei=V5ctXKnYNY3aswXP-72AAw&q=ca...
Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:24AM (#18813271)
Premium is not nessisarily luxury.

Anyway, the average tells you a lot. To simify, if the cars sold for 20k, 20k, 20k, 20k ... with one selling for X million. The that X million car eats up 16/36 = 44.5% of the value. Further, if the margin is low on 20k cars and high on X million dollar cars then it’s more profitable to just sell the one car.

You can play with these numbers, but generally the median is well below the average. So, by revenue 50+% of the market is for 40+k vechile which a premium product. At least compared to a 16k Yaris which gets you from A to B just fine.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by chrismeller on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:26AM (#18813026)
None of the top 10 best selling cars in the US [1] are what I would call “premium”. Do you really see a $36k Toyota Camry as being above average?

I’m not saying the price isn’t insane, but there’s a big gap between that and a mid-range 7 series for $96k.

1: https://focus2move.com/usa-best-selling-cars/

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:32AM (#18813304)
Volume is not nessisarily profitable.

Sell 10 million cars for 20k with 5% margins or 2 million cars for 40k with 10% margins. Do the math the second makes you more money even selling 1/5 the cars.

Also, you might look down on a 36k car, but it’s several steps up from a 16k Yaris which would get you from A to B.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by chrismeller on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:17AM (#18814330)
I never said it was more profitable, I was disputing your argument that a $36k car is "premium", which means your analogy comparing Toyota to Apple was poor at best.

I also did not look down on a $36k car - if you read my comment I actually did quite the opposite - but my opinion isn't at all relevant, since we're talking about the majority of buyers (in this case in the US) when it comes to buying expensive "premium" products like cars and phones.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by Retric on Thursday January 03, 2019 @08:49AM (#18815033)
Premium is a marketing strategy. A base Toyota Camry is 22k and that’s the price point you’re buying dependability / utility. The marketing changes as you move up the price point even before you hit the ultra premium price points. An easy way to look at this is Advertising as a percentage of total sales. If you spend 10% on advertising you could instead lower the price by ~10%. Dawn dish soap does not spend millions on advertising because it feels good, they are well past the point of people being aware of their product.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_pricing

Ex: ‘It does not just raise the bar, it is the bar’.

Re:Apple's warning is a bad omen for Wall Street bulls by acct1771 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:07AM (#18815603)
Believe it's still the most reliable model of vehicle that exists in the West.