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Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by ivraatiems on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:35PM (#18808683)
Characterizing lying to the SEC and calling a Thai cave rescuer a "pedo" as such is stretching the definition of "forward-looking statement."

Musk has always been largely bluster, but now the bluster is hurting people, and his companies as well. He's the biggest liability Tesla has.

I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by martythemaniak on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:49PM (#18808816)
> I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's.

The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success, with no established car maker able to match them yet. It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by ivraatiems on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:52PM (#18808852)
> It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.

Certainly possible. I personally think he's acting like a buffoon and I haven't been shy about stating it.

However, as I told another commenter in this thread, I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning, he's now more of a liability than an asset. It's not that he was never valuable or never deserved any trust - rather that he doesn't deserve it now.

Put another way: At what point does the goodwill he's earned expire?

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by jsight on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:17PM (#18810296)
I have always seen him as a bit like William Durant. His use expires when the company is no longer trying to grow at 2x every 3 years.

Alternatively, he could dramatically change his approach as the business matures.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by permatech on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:37PM (#18809345)
> I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin initially got Tesla into existence.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by minhazm on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:02PM (#18809606)
True, but Elon Musk led their series A, which is also when he joined the company along with J.B. Yes Martin and Marc created the company, but it would not be where it is today without Elon Musk.

It doesn't always matter who initially created the company. For example one of the co-founders of Apple was Ronald Wayne, whom the vast majority of people have never heard of. He left Apple very early and sold all his shares back to Jobs and Wozniak for $800.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by clouddrover on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:55PM (#18809528)
> with no established car maker able to match them yet.

The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster):

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-...

https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr...

Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today:

https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...

Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers:

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric

https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/

https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html

https://www.e-tron.audi/en

VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform:

http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss...

https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-...

Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by gibolt on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:28PM (#18810408)
Kona will only be available in a small number of U.S. states and global regions, in limited quantities.

It is a compliance car, to reduce the emissions overall of the fleet they sell allowing them to sell more high profit ICE cars. They are likely losing money on each sale as well.

I think the Kona is a great start and wish it would have a better chance, but it is crippled from the beginning.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by clouddrover on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:45PM (#18810551)
So you're arguing that Hyundai beats Tesla on price and efficiency even when Hyundai's not really trying? What will happen to Tesla when Hyundai really tries?
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by gibolt on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:00PM (#18810684)
No, I'm arguing that they have to sell a certain number, otherwise face stiff penalties in the U.S. and Europe. Discounting the car and taking a loss is better than paying the fine.

On a positive note, it is a step in the right direction to rev up that part of the company, as they will need the experience for future success when they can no longer rely on ICE sales

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by gibolt on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:01PM (#18810700)
The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla. While it makes a good commuter car, it is strictly not on the same playing field as a model 3, other than price and propulsion method.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by clouddrover on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:34PM (#18812842)
> The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla.

Yes, I agree. Hyundai has better quality control than Tesla:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115659_tesla-model-3-q...

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by gamblor956 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:13PM (#18811650)
The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla. While it makes a good commuter car, it is strictly not on the same playing field as a model 3, other than price and propulsion method.

Agreed. The Kona's fit and finish is miles ahead of the Model 3, and the interior comfort is the same for...1/4 the cost of the Model 3? Tesla's got quite a bit of work cut out for it if it hopes for the $35k Model 3 to stand a chance in the marketplace, since it'll being facing a ton of competition by the time it comes out (if ever).

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by cjhopman on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:15PM (#18811282)
It's not nearly on the same playing field as the model 3 in regards to price.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by Zarel on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:31PM (#18809886)
The last time this came up, many people said that the primary reason to buy a Tesla was for Autopilot, which I have not yet heard of another manufacturer with an equivalent product.

I think another advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger station access.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by pkulak on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:56PM (#18810107)
I'd agree with you on autopilot. Though, I think all that most people want is good crash avoidance plus lane keeping and traffic-aware cruise on the freeway. A lot of other car companies are there as well, and I'm starting to believe that true level 5 is a decade off or totally impossible.

Supercharger access is becoming less of an exclusive as well. Electrify America is putting in a lot of stations (there's a couple near me right now, with about a dozen more planned) that support 150kW now (30 more than a Supercharger), and 350kW as soon as there's a car that can take it.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by clouddrover on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:41PM (#18810517)
> 350kW as soon as there's a car that can take it

Like the Porsche Taycan:

https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-p...

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by zaphod12 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:06PM (#18810188)
Cadillac super cruise is supposed to be fantastic. I've never used either and will not comment on which is better, but it's certainly competitive.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by rconti on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:50PM (#18810053)
Agreed, these are both killer apps for Tesla. I've got a 3 and have driven my car with Autopilot and a few Model S with autopilot, and it's crazy tech. To me, it's not worth the money, so I didn't order it, but to others, it's the entire reason to buy the car.

Even though I've only used superchargers 4 times in 6 months, it absolutely solves the EV roadtrip FUD in a way that nobody else has figured out yet.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by adamqureshi on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:15PM (#18809744)
Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by dmode on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:26PM (#18809848)
Tesla just sold 63K Model 3s in a single quarter. Despite availability of Leaf and Bolt [both are cheaper]. None of the vehicles you have listed are true competitors to Tesla at this time. True competition will be something like an electric 3 series or C-class
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by pkulak on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:57PM (#18810121)
The Jag and Audi are _absolutely_ competitors.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by dmode on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:02PM (#18810711)
Jag IPace sold less than 200 vehicles in the US in November 2018[1]. Comparably Model X sold ~1875 in Nov 2017. [2]

[1] https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ [2] http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-...

I live in the most EV friendly region in the US and I hardly see I-Paces. Meanwhile Tesla is just crushing it here.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by natch on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:24PM (#18812803)
They are priced higher than the long range dual motor model of the Tesla Model 3, yet they have significantly lower range and the Audi has inferior performance where the expensive Jaguar barely matches the 3. But unlike Tesla, both lack the supercharger network so good luck traveling with them. Competitors? Maybe, but not really all that competitive.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by OldFatCactus on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:15PM (#18809069)
Match them at what?
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by mav3rick on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:43PM (#18808769)
If bluster results in the first truly desirable EV cars and the first autonomous reusable rocket then more bluster please. The rage machine against Elon here is preposterous. At the end of the day , is he making the world a better place ?. No amount of contrived answers involving Twitter can change the vehement "Yes" to that question.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by ivraatiems on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:47PM (#18808803)
> At the end of the day, is he making the world a better place?

With rare exception, I don't subscribe to the idea of "key men" in general, and especially not in this case. Even if I did, I don't think that Musk is acting in a way that makes him an asset.

I agree that Tesla, for instance, is doing good and important work. However, I think attributing Tesla's success, and net impact on the world to Musk alone is unsupported by evidence. That's because aside from initial investment/PR, and sufficient cult of personality to inspire people to work for him at the start, I don't see what Elon Musk is contributing to the company's work at this point. In fact, I see him as a liability and I think Tesla would be better off without him.

Candidly, I also believe that if Musk was less driven by his own ego, as he appears to be, he'd see that and step aside.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by kitsunesoba on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:15PM (#18809743)
I would say that his contribution to Tesla is mostly a sense of urgency and direction. Certainly some more “normal” CEO could come in and make the company more profitable, but it’d come with steep cost: the company would also become very stagnant and very boring. That’d be great for Wall Street but it’d bum me out pretty badly.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by _ph_ on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:27PM (#18809224)
Of course, the success of Tesla isn't based on Musk alone. There are thousands of Tesla employees contributing to it. Be it in engineering or production. However, Musk is the glue which ties all of this together. He set the direction, contributed quite a lot of his personal money in the beginning and is at the steering wheel.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by londons_explore on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:26AM (#18815278)
I think there is another way to make this comparison:

If Musk did not exist, and Tesla as a company did not exist, then all the engineers, expertise, effort, and capital that is currently with Tesla would be placed elsewhere.

Would all those people and resources do more good with all the other companies?

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by hopler on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:47PM (#18809436)
Tesla is one of many companies making mass market electric cars. Piling on luxury touches isn't making the world a better place. Tesla's $35K car (when if ever shows shows up) isn't better than anyone else's. He's just coming down from higher price points on fancier cars while others are improving at the same price point.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by jpatokal on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:13PM (#18809719)
Have you driven or been in a Tesla? These are manifestly not the same cars as anyone else's.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by mav3rick on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:29PM (#18812326)
Model 3's are everywhere, especially in the Bay Area. But sure say false things to suit your narrative.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by stanfordkid on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @08:54PM (#18812173)
Landing rockets on autonomous drone barges, coming out with a sedan that beats a Lamborghini Aventador in 0-60 acceleration at 1/6th the cost, thereby pushing the state of the art across the entire car industry. Seems like a guy I would trust.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by londons_explore on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:28AM (#18815287)
My model rockets do 0 to 60 in well under a second, and I'm totally not a guy you should trust.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by dwaltrip on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:08PM (#18809667)
You are ignoring a decade plus of very impressive results. Sure, the man has significant flaws. That is not justification for an inaccurate portrayal.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by cjhopman on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:17PM (#18811296)
What results? Give me $30 billion dollars to waste and I can easily show you $28 billion dollars of progress.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by alexandros on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:45PM (#18809411)
Elon has not lied to the SEC. Please provide link or other evidence. He settled a claim that he manipulated the stock without admitting guilt, in order to avoid damaging the company, but that is completely different.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by scrumbledober on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:11PM (#18810234)
he said "funding secured" and didn't have any funding secured. The SEC was lenient in allowing the settlement without an admission of guilt, but that does not mean he was not guilty. I'm a huge fan of most of the things he has done, but this was a boneheaded move only surpassed by his embarrassing pedophilia comments.
Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by Agathos on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:43PM (#18810529)
Technically he was lying to his investors, not the SEC.

Of course then in that 60 Minutes interview he all but declared he wouldn't honor his side of the settlement, but we'll see if he follows through on that.

Re:Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss est... by Riesling on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:35PM (#18809323)
You didn't happen to have a short position on Tesla when the infamous 420 tweet happened?