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Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by CydeWeys on Sunday December 30, 2018 @07:41PM (#18792237)
When I buy a plane ticket, that's a regular purchase, because tens of thousands of planes exist and millions of people are actually flying on planes every day.

When you purchase a ticket on a spacecraft that doesn't yet exist, hasn't even been fully developed yet, and that no one has ever flown on, it's quite a different situation. I don't think the company lied about any of these facts. It should have always been clear that there was more risk involved.

And the reason the refund won't happen has little to do with bankruptcy protections and everything to do with the fact that the company failed. It turns out what they had tried to do was harder than expected, and they spent all their money without coming close to the end goal. That money is gone and won't be coming back, regardless of anything having to do with bankruptcy. As the saying goes, you can't squeeze blood from a stone. In theory they may be owed their $100k back, but in practice they'll never get it because it's no longer there.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by benj111 on Monday December 31, 2018 @04:16AM (#18793768)
>And the reason the refund won't happen has little to do with bankruptcy protections and everything to do with the fact that the company failed.

This to me just sounds like semantics. Is there a point I'm missing? Bankruptcy is for failed companies, failed companies go bankrupt.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by CydeWeys on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:44PM (#18796499)
The original quote was:

> Xcor owes them a full refund, and the only reason it won't happen is due to bankruptcy protections

Implying that, absent bankruptcy protections, the customers would somehow get their money back. My point was that, even if bankruptcy protections didn't exist, and those debts couldn't be discharged, the customers are still never getting their money back because it was spent on R&D and the company itself is now valueless.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by benj111 on Monday December 31, 2018 @03:55PM (#18796957)
Ah ok, that makes sense :)
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by danmaz74 on Monday December 31, 2018 @09:47AM (#18794675)
A company can go bankrupt but still have assets to pay back debts. Bankruptcy protection can apply in that case, if the business can somehow continue operating instead of simply be liquidated. But if the company has no assets to seize, bankruptcy protection doesn't apply...
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by dragonwriter on Monday December 31, 2018 @09:54AM (#18794708)
> Bankruptcy is for failed companies

No, bankruptcy is not exclusively for failed companies.

And failed companies don't always go bankrupt.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by jilop on Sunday December 30, 2018 @07:56PM (#18792308)
They perpetuated a fraud by selling something that doesn't exist. They might have invited criminal punishment and personal tort liability.
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by lisper on Sunday December 30, 2018 @08:11PM (#18792381)
> They perpetuated a fraud by selling something that doesn't exist.

It's only fraud if they misrepresented the fact that it didn't yet exist, which seems very unlikely.

Buying things that don't yet exist happens all the time. Thousands of people put down deposits on Tesla Model 3's that did not then exist. People regularly buy houses under construction, and people often lose money when the contractor fails to deliver. It happens all the time.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by shakna on Sunday December 30, 2018 @08:39PM (#18792500)
They (Xcor) also asserted that 35% of the ticket price would be held in 3rd party escrow for such an eventuality, which the 3rd party now asserts is not correct. That is very likely to be fraud.
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by lisper on Sunday December 30, 2018 @08:51PM (#18792537)
Yes, that's true. But good luck recovering damages from a bankrupt defendant.
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by chimeracoder on Sunday December 30, 2018 @10:36PM (#18792851)
> Yes, that's true. But good luck recovering damages from a bankrupt defendant.

Fraud can pierce the veil, so it's not just the company that they can go after, but also anyone responsible for the fraud.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by garmaine on Monday December 31, 2018 @04:10AM (#18793760)
That’s why it is in escrow.
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by shakna on Sunday December 30, 2018 @10:24PM (#18792818)
I know the US is different and strange, in that a corporation is a person...

... But where I am, bankruptcy only lasts 3 years + 1 day, after which point, those that had shares within the entity that has failed, or the part-owners, will be required to begin paying back their debts. Bankruptcy is not a failsafe to prevent you paying all debts. It's just a timeout to give you time to be in a position to pay those debts. And yes, it can be declared multiple times, but it won't always be accepted.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by _cs2017_ on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:54AM (#18793577)
Wherever you live, there are likely companies with limited liability of the owners. In the US they are corporations or LLCs or limited partnerships. In your country they may be named differently. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_company.

When such a company runs out of money, nobody else will be required to come up with cash to pay its debts. You don't need to read the bankruptcy laws to verify that, it's just the definition of a limited liability.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by EGreg on Sunday December 30, 2018 @10:41PM (#18792868)
What is the point of that, if the money invested is vastly more than what the owner can earn?

The USA having bankruptcy protections is what helps foster this level of risk and entrepreneurship here.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by shakna on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:16PM (#18792979)
It's not investments that need to get paid back - it's contracts, or rather the value of the contract.

In this case, Xcor would need to pay back the fees they said would go to escrow. Not any investor who took equity on the gamble it would be worth something.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by toast0 on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:19AM (#18793355)
Where is Xcor supposed to get this money? They lost their revenue source, laid off all their employees, and any property they have is presumably not nearly enough to satisfy their debt. The business is almost certain to close pending the resolution of the bankruptcy.

Certainly, if people were promised that there was money in escrow and it wasn't, that sounds like fraud, but that doesn't mean those who perpetuated the fraud have the money either.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by ams6110 on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:14PM (#18792973)
Any construction loan will include completion insurance. If you're putting cash down without that, you are assuming that risk yourself.
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by olalonde on Sunday December 30, 2018 @10:11PM (#18792787)
> It's only fraud if they misrepresented the fact that it didn't yet exist, which seems very unlikely.

I don't know the details of the situation but fraud happens all the time as well and without having more information, I wouldn't discount it as a possibility.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by ilrwbwrkhv on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:12AM (#18793135)
i mean.. planes sell tickets everyday for seats that don't exist.. its all legal...
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by CydeWeys on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:42PM (#18796481)
And if you end up on one of those oversold seats you get all sorts of compensation for it, like [free rebooking or a full refund] plus additional money. Depending on how badly this messes up your travel schedule, you can be owed up to 600 Euros (in the EU) plus free rebooking.

It's not at all the same situation as buying a "ticket" for a rocket that hasn't even been built yet; those funds are going to be spent on R&D with no guarantee of success, and you're never going to get your money back; the best case scenario is you get to take the trip.

Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by pjungwir on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:25AM (#18793373)
perpetrated
Re:They paid $100k to ride on Xcor's space plane. Now they w... by digsmahler on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:23PM (#18795601)
> It turns out what they had tried to do was harder than expected

Literally every business/engineering project ever.