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Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by paulsutter on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:07PM (#18779077)
It's called "elastic demand" and it just means that roads are useful. The Boring Company has a twofold solution (a) charge for usage, and (b) build to 30 levels or more to meet demand
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by imtringued on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:24PM (#18779170)
This appears to be a classic case of a visible problem where the effects of the solution are not visible immediately.

Building wider roads is a success if they move more people compared to a more narrow road. It doesn't matter if they stay congested even as you widen them. The goal of a wider road isn't to reduce congestion the goal is to move more people.

This same type of reasoning is used against constructing more housing because building more housing doesn't have an impact on rent prices while ignoring that every new apartment provides housing for a new person. The goal of more housing isn't to reduce rent prices, it's housing more people!

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:42PM (#18779255)
>The goal of more housing isn't to reduce rent prices //

A goal of house building is certainly to provide affordable housing. Unfortunately that goal isn't shared by the people with the money/land whose goal is usually just "make as much profit as possible". Those already profiting from rent are usually strictly opposed to the goal of affordable housing too.

But that doesn't mean that a substantial portion of society doesn't support it; the power to achieve it just doesn't lie with them.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:26PM (#18779560)
Of course the power lies with them. Their activism is the primary impediment to actually-feasible projects getting built. All they have to do to yield a healthier supply/demand balance is stand down.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by fabioborellini on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:18PM (#18779141)
In the Old World we have public mass transit. One vehicle can transport a thousand commuters, and it does not need to be stored in the most desired area of the city for the duration of a working day.

Sometimes it looks like the Silicon Valley is trying to solve transit problems either against the laws of physics and economics or, alternatively, ignoring solutions that were there already in the 1800s.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by twblalock on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:44PM (#18779270)
> Sometimes it looks like the Silicon Valley is trying to solve transit problems either against the laws of physics and economics or, alternatively, ignoring solutions that were there already in the 1800s.

The problem is that many American cities, including those in Silicon Valley, would need to be torn down and rebuilt for European- or Japanese-style transit to make sense. Everything is very spread out. Most people in London or Paris or Tokyo live within a short walking distance of a train station. In cities like LA, many people could walk over a mile from their house and only see other houses.

Because everything is so spread out, we would require many stations in suburban residential neighborhoods or nobody would have a station within walking distance of their home. However, those stations would only be useful to the small number of people who live in those neighborhoods because nobody else would have a reason to go there. It's hard to imagine those stations would get enough ridership to make economic sense.

So we are stuck with transit restricted to downtown areas, and if you want to go downtown or leave downtown you need a car. The Boring Company is attempting to recognize that reality and solve the "last mile problem" by turning cars themselves into public transit. It will be pretty cool if it works.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by lazyjones on Friday December 28, 2018 @08:34PM (#18781093)
> Sometimes it looks like the Silicon Valley is trying to solve transit problems either against the laws of physics and economics or, alternatively, ignoring solutions that were there already in the 1800s.

That, or the Old World is simply stuck with cities where no more roads can be built without tearing down many inhabited buildings, so people are forced to use smelly, uncomfortable public transport. I'd appreciate more honesty and less ideology in such debates.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by chadcmulligan on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:47AM (#18782338)
> I'd appreciate more honesty and less ideology in such debates

and yet

> forced to use smelly, uncomfortable public transport

There is no need to public transport to be smelly and uncomfortable if enough money is spent on maintenance.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by lazyjones on Saturday December 29, 2018 @05:46AM (#18783032)
> There is no need to public transport to be smelly and uncomfortable if enough money is spent on maintenance.

I live in Vienna, which has arguably some of the best maintained and expensive public transport. It's still smelly, because people. They forbid food (initially only smelly food, but signs - pictograms in the subway - show any/all types of food) recently because people complained and during last summer the administration handed out free deodorants to passengers.

Sorry, public transport IS uncomfortable and smelly, like most places with many people.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by chadcmulligan on Saturday December 29, 2018 @05:57AM (#18783065)
I'm in Australia and the public transport is clean here. No food is allowed, and its enforced. There is the occasional smelly person, particularly in summer, unavoidable. In general though it works well.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by lazyjones on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:07AM (#18783088)
I'd like to see some pictures of the inside of a subway train in the center of Melbourne on 6am on a Saturday... ;-)

It's a mentality issue - Singapore and Japan are also famous for clean public transport, but in most countries it's simply not possible.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by chadcmulligan on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:31AM (#18783157)
I'm not in Melbourne so can't say, who knows what they get up to down there but whenever I've been there I've had no complaints. The fact that Singapore and Japan can do it, means its possible though if there's a political will.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by reaperducer on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#18779293)
In the Old World we have public mass transit. One vehicle can transport a thousand commuters, and it does not need to be stored in the most desired area of the city for the duration of a working day.

If you include London in "the Old World," it has the same horrible freeway congestion problems every other city does. Being European doesn't change the laws of physics.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by awakeasleep on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:43PM (#18779263)
Musk is trying to solve the transit problem of people making over 200k a year- Maintain the standard of absolute luxury and privacy provided by the car, while reducing the concentration required to drive and the time it takes to be stuck in traffic.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by erik_seaberg on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:25PM (#18779547)
Sometimes I wonder how buses with private compartments would be received, compared to today's cattle cars.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by belenos46 on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:58PM (#18779352)
Likely the latter, and for that we can largely thank large motorist groups in the US. Michelin comes to mind, as they created their "Michelin star" metric to give people a reason to drive places, and then lobbied like hell to create town/city layouts that mandated driving.

A hundred years later, driving is a massive part of US culture, and we have trouble seeing the problem because that's "just how things are".

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by twblalock on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:47PM (#18785048)
This scheme would not have succeeded if people preferred public transit to driving.

Honestly it's not hard to see why it succeeded. Back in the early postwar period, driving was cheap and easy, parking was plentiful, traffic was light, and the new interstate highway system made long-distance car travel practical.

Even if the motorist groups had not lobbied for it, cars would have taken over anyway because people liked them so much.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by fgheorghe on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:23PM (#18779166)
In the “old world” cities like London, Paris, Berlin and others are facing the eact same problems, with or without those overcrowded, overpriced buses you mentioned.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by lmm on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:35PM (#18779216)
I live in London. Many people don't own cars. Many who moved here with a car give up their cars. Working public transport systems leave everyone better off.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#18779288)
Public transport in London is incredibly good, I'm always amazed. But then it's NOT run by 5 competing companies that couldn't care less about linked up journeys.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by twblalock on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:49PM (#18785059)
On the other hand, transit in Tokyo and Osaka is run by a number of public and private companies, some of which compete with each other, and linked-up journeys are no problem at all. It's totally doable.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by lmm on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:19AM (#18814342)
Japanese companies do not have much of a reputation for red-in-tooth-and-claw competition (e.g. the "gentleman's agreement" about advertised car horsepower).
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by icelancer on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:51PM (#18779316)
Your cities are built for mass transit. Ours are not, owing to the enormous landmass we utilize in the ways that we do. This is not a simple problem to solve by just adding more trains and bus units.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by fridek on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#18779294)
I live in London and commute 10 miles each way daily. It takes me ~45 minutes in rush hour. Driving the same distance is, in the middle of the night, 30-40 min (in rush hour you can be stuck simply until it's over). Total cost is also lower at 2000 pounds a year for round trips on my route (which would cover only insurance and gas at best). Also, I haven't taken a bus to work, ever. Tube serves 5 million passengers a day and whilst sometimes crowded, seems to be scaling pretty well.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by mklingen on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:10PM (#18779435)
The Boring Company's "solution" is a [sad joke](https://slate.com/business/2018/12/elon-musks-los-angeles-tu...) that belies Musk's utter disconnect with reality. The fact that the man openly mocks public transportation while crying about LA traffic only makes the matter worse.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by paulcole on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:32PM (#18779203)
Currently, traffic jams only prevent you from moving forward. In the future they’ll keep you from going down, too.

Progress!