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Re:Windows Sandbox by dman on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:40AM (#18713587)
Please do not make this a Pro / Enterprise feature. I do remote tech support for my parents and would love for them to browse / use apps in a sandbox.
Re:Windows Sandbox by abhiminator on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:53AM (#18713653)
Agreed. I'd go so as far to say that consumers -- especially technologically vulnerable ones like your parents, for example -- need this more than any other demographic.

Microsoft should make it easy to download, install and update on all non-Enterprise versions of the OS. This will also greatly reduce instances of a random ransomware holding critical data hostage and doing irreparable economic damage to small businesses (as was visible during the WannaCry episode last spring [0]).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry_ransomware_attack

Re:Windows Sandbox by plq on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:06AM (#18713735)
> Microsoft should make it easy to download, install and update on all non-Enterprise versions of the OS.

I'll take this one step further: Microsoft should make this as easy as "right click > Run in Sandbox". It would make the lives of everyone so much easier.

Re:Windows Sandbox by ChuckMcM on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:50AM (#18713951)
Think of it like giving your parent's a $100 present for Christmas, an upgrade from Win Home to Win Pro and your life will be so much easier.
Re:Windows Sandbox by dman on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @10:21AM (#18716166)
Sure, but Microsoft could give the same gift to every parent out there. (I don’t mind buying windows pro for parents at all, issue is that when they buy a device it often does not come with pro preinstalled so there is a window where the device is vulnerable before I can remotely administer it)
Re:Windows Sandbox by ChuckMcM on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:48PM (#18718157)
Of course they could, but using that money they will go on to build another feature that you'll be able to use because you're already at the 'pro' level of their OS.

The alternative is to convince some engineers to create this same feature in their spare time and contribute it for free as a Linux package. Then they can get email about all of the things it doesn't do, and fix bugs in their spare time on a feature that all they see are complaints for. Until they burn out and the repo goes dead for a while and then gets picked up by one of those users who wants the feature to exist, and they make some improvements and get into an argument with another user who forks it and now there are two of them, almost the same but with a few features that are unique to each one. Of course for most of the users they either don't care and load one at random, or they do care and find features from the "other" system they want in the one that is being used. They send mail to the maintainers asking them to copy those features. Which adds more pain as the developers copy each other's features but they put their own special spin on them. This burns out more developers and a third person comes out and writes their own syntactically incompatible version that is functionally identical to the two different 'legacy' versions.

At this point I just pay the man his $100 and appreciate that the people working on the code are on it all day and can spend evenings with their family.

Re:Windows Sandbox by josho on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:11AM (#18716615)
You underestimate your parents likelihood to overgeneralize your sandbox advice. I expect you will be receiving this call months from now:

"You told me to use sandbox to be safe, so I wrote critical document X in a sandbox because I want it to be safe, but now that I rebooted I've lost all of my work."

Re:Windows Sandbox by dkdbejwi383 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:45AM (#18713613)
Agreed, this sounds like a genuinely useful feature, it’s a shame to hide it and restrict it to pro users only. Things like this should be “first class citizens” of the OS and in the spotlight for marketing.
Re:Windows Sandbox by pjmlp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:58AM (#18713692)
That is what Windows store apps and MSIX sandbox are for.
Re:Windows Sandbox by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:31AM (#18713862)
Except Windows store apps are strictly worse than being able to run regular Windows software in a sandbox.
Re:Windows Sandbox by pjmlp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:39AM (#18713902)
One of MSIX purposes is to package old style Windows software, your regular Windows software into Windows Store sandbox, hence why I mentioned it.

It is an evolution of desktop bridge, appx and msi.

Re:Windows Sandbox by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:12AM (#18714056)
I stand corrected.
Re:Windows Sandbox by hawski on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:07AM (#18714575)
I'm not much of a Windows user, but MSIX sounds great.

Does it add a simple context menu entry to convert an installer? Bonus points for straight up Install and even more for Run.

I see it's open source, so if it's missing it may be possible to make a distribution of it with those things implemented. Then one could install it and make it a default msi handler.

Edit: from what I see conversion is much more involved. Create a certificate and go through a wizard and fill out some forms. Correct me if the is a quick and easy convert option. Otherwise it's a nice thing that needs more development to be useful for a generic user.

Re:Windows Sandbox by pjmlp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:39AM (#18714710)
MSIX is a developer feature, replaces appx and msi installers, while adding support for sandboxing in the process.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/sgern/2018/06/18/a-closer-l...

A generic user is supposed to just double click on an *.msix file to get it installed on the Windows Store infrastructure.

Re:Windows Sandbox by fetbaffe on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:10AM (#18714835)
"Being just the start, MSI packages may very well be supported for at least a few more years on Windows 10. However, by looking on the GitHub repo of MSIX, there are some hints that Microsoft envisions a future where MSIX not only replaces the MSI but also creates a package format which cross-platform Microsoft applications can recognize and use on any platform (iOS, Android, MacOS, and Linux)."

https://www.advancedinstaller.com/msix-windows-package.html

Re:Windows Sandbox by Holybeds on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @10:29AM (#18716228)
> MSI packages may very well be supported for at least a few more years on Windows 10

This sounds like someone making installer stuff would say. MSI will be supported on modern OSes for much longer than "a few more years".

VB6 apps created in 1998 will be supported until 2025 at least. MSIs will be treated the same.

Re:Windows Sandbox by vitorgrs on Monday December 24, 2018 @12:07AM (#18750471)
Windows Core OS doesn't support MSI by default. :)
Re:Windows Sandbox by Santosh83 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:05AM (#18713733)
You can't run a non-Store app in such a sandbox I believe?
Re:Windows Sandbox by pjmlp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:37AM (#18713893)
Only when packaged via MSIX, which is why I mentioned it.
Re:Windows Sandbox by outadoc on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:27AM (#18715143)
I wish MSIX was available on Windows 7 too. It would have much greater adoption.
Re:Windows Sandbox by WorldMaker on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:18PM (#18719739)
Re:Windows Sandbox by joshAg on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:51AM (#18713642)
why not just buy them a pro edition? I know it's more expensive, but that would also get you remote desktop, bitlocker, and group policy, which would all also be great for remote supporting your parents.
Re:Windows Sandbox by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:16AM (#18715103)
I would spend a few hundred extra dollars and just get a MacBook air or mini and install 1blocker on it.
Re:Windows Sandbox by Someone1234 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @09:05AM (#18715651)
Because you're still left with the same issue? MacOS's security technology is significantly behind Windows, only its relative obscurity protects it.
Re:Windows Sandbox by jedieaston on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @10:37AM (#18716309)
System Integrity Protection would protect against many of the same threats that Windows Sandbox would (since it prevents applications from doing extreme damage to the system even with root), and by default it only lets you install software from developers registered with Apple (either inside or outside the Mac App Store). It'd be more secure out of the box than a Windows system, as if you have admin and are willing to click "yes", you can let an application do anything on Windows (although most attacks can be prevented with the new features in Pro/Enterprise).
Re:Windows Sandbox by Someone1234 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:02AM (#18716537)
Windows 10 has identical defaults (Windows Store install only, with hard locks on certain parts of the system and an integrity checker).
Re:Windows Sandbox by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:03PM (#18717114)
All I know is my older and less tech savvy relatives experience pretty much no problems with Apple devices and iOS/macOS. And if they did, they can take it to the Apple store.
Re:Windows Sandbox by dman on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:11AM (#18713765)
Because sometimes they buy a new computer and it is a while before I am able to visit them across the planet and install a new OS in it. Would really like a good out of the box experience.
Re:Windows Sandbox by Schlaefer on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:57AM (#18714533)
You don't need to install a new OS, you just enter a Windows Pro license key to upgrade the version? Buy the key online, send it to your parents, tell them where to enter it, done.

Also I don't think your parents want to use that particular sandbox. There's no persistence at all: no bookmarks, no cookies, no history, no local documents, ...

Re:Windows Sandbox by dman on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:55PM (#18718222)
The no persistence is why I like it. It would be ideal if I could ask my parents to do their entire browsing in an ephemeral sandbox and even if they end up clicking / installing something from a shady link it wont blow away their (real) persistent OS install.
Re:Windows Sandbox by joshAg on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:45PM (#18717579)
Totally get that issue. It might be worth spending a day or weekend making a boot-disk for them that will wipe their current disk image, and install win10 pro with it set-up so you can remote admin it.

That way for your parents they just have to buy the pc, put the usb in and reboot it, and then call you when it's back on so you can remote in and give it a key and finish configuring it for them. I suppose even that might cause issues if you can't teach them or walk them through via facetime how to set the device to boot from the usb instead of the harddrive.

Re:Windows Sandbox by Illniyar on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:31AM (#18713866)
Hardware virtualization is a Pro feature in windows, so I doubt this is possible even if they wanted to (without moving virtualization to home edition).
Re:Windows Sandbox by theandrewbailey on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:33AM (#18715439)
I took an inventory of which apps my parents use: email, solitaire, Youtube, and some web browsing. That was it. Linux is good at doing those things, so I put them on Xubuntu (my preferred distro) about 8 years ago. Once my mom understood that the UI was similar enough to Windows, she didn't mind. Its been remarkably stable (and usable) ever since.
Re:Windows Sandbox by voltagex_ on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:47AM (#18713626)
Ah, it's Pro because it's using Hyper-V.
Re:Windows Sandbox by n-gatedotcom on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:49AM (#18713633)
Then make Hyper-v home.

Seriously this is a killer feature needed by everybody. And specially the non-pro users.

Re:Windows Sandbox by JaRail on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:53AM (#18713967)
A lot (most?) of the hardware Home runs on doesn't support hardware virtualization.
Re:Windows Sandbox by coder543 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:55AM (#18713985)
Effectively all x86_64 hardware from the last 10+ years supports hardware virtualization, so I can't agree.
Re:Windows Sandbox by kevingadd on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:32AM (#18714682)
Aside from the points made by another reply (BIOS support, older CPUs), some machines have virtualization switched off by default because it's broken. I had a (fairly old) x86-64 laptop that would randomly hardlock while running VMs if I turned on hardware virtualization.
Re:Windows Sandbox by justincormack on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:45AM (#18714189)
Not necessarily in the Bios settings. And there are CPUs without still.
Re:Windows Sandbox by Already__Taken on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:09AM (#18714304)
£2,500 Dell XPS ships Home out of the box unless specified otherwise.

Windows SKU has nothing to do with hardware.

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/2-in-1-laptops/new-xps-15-2-...

Actually I can't seem to configure that directly from dell to come with Pro lol. Seems there's a question about that too.

Re:Windows Sandbox by wongarsu on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:59AM (#18714794)
With Dell you have to buy the business version of a notebook to get Windows Pro. Your example would be [1][2]. Apart from price the main differences are that the business versions ship with Windows Pro and that they have better warranty (next-day onsite).

1: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/tablets-and-2-in-1-lapt...

2: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptops/new-xps-15-2-in...

Re:Windows Sandbox by WorldMaker on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:23PM (#18719790)
The Windows Store in Windows 10 has a "one-click" $99 upgrade from Home to Pro, Dell doesn't really need to offer it as a configuration item anymore.
Re:Windows Sandbox by voltagex_ on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @01:43AM (#18713600)
Agreed, but at least it isn't gated off like Windows Defender Advanced Threat Protection
[dead]
Re:Windows Sandbox by cm2187 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:45AM (#18713928)
Like get them to learn a lot of linux command lines?
Re:Windows Sandbox by coder543 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:50AM (#18713949)
I'm pretty sure that's not the only alternative... some others include a Chromebook, an iPad, a MacBook, or even installing a Linux distro and setting it up for them such that they don't need to use the CLI to accomplish the things they want to do.

But honestly, my opinion is that Windows 10 is not as fragile as earlier versions of Windows were.

Re:Windows Sandbox by cm2187 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:54AM (#18713983)
If the parents' problem is that they install random software, that's not going to help them. I have seen MacBooks with twenty spyware browser extensions.
Re:Windows Sandbox by coder543 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:04AM (#18714020)
I really doubt that, but I can't easily argue with an anecdote, so sure. It happened, probably 15 years ago.

Windows was famous for tons of installers bundling toolbars, but that's never been an epidemic on Mac.

These days, Macs will not install unsigned software by default, and you can lock that down to App Store only with a single setting change, so they're certainly not getting bundled malicious toolbars from installing software... since distributing malware is a quick way to get your developer signature revoked, and you're certainly not going to be installing toolbars from the App Store sandbox.

That leaves manually installing malicious toolbars through the official extension store for whatever browser they use. All extension stores do their best to weed out malicious extensions these days, and it takes intentional effort to install extensions. It doesn't just happen while you're trying to do other things.

Obviously, toolbars don't even exist on iPads, and software installers bundling random malware is obviously not a huge concern on Chromebooks. A MacBook was not at the front of my list, so I don't know why you chose to singularly attack that option. Maybe you thought it was the easiest target?

Re:Windows Sandbox by cm2187 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:08AM (#18714036)
But I don't think "it just happens" on windows either (outside of OEM crapware, which granted is pure dirt). Most of the time it is unsophisticated users led to click and install things themselves. An application signature won't help.
Re:Windows Sandbox by coder543 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:16AM (#18714079)
how would application signing not help?

if the OS won't let the user install the malware, that's the end of the line.

As I said in my original comment, I don't think Windows 10 is as fragile as earlier versions. A large part of this is the additional enforcement around application signing, even though it isn't as strong as what macOS does by default.

In earlier versions of Windows, it absolutely did "just happen" from a non-technical user's point of view. Linux, macOS, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Windows 10 do not allow it to "just happen".

Re:Windows Sandbox by cookiecaper on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:40AM (#18714451)
>if the OS won't let the user install the malware, that's the end of the line.

except there's no definitive, 100% foolproof way to identify something as malware v. not-malware. If you put a bunch of dialogs in front of something, the site will just include a for-dummies illustration of what to click to allow the install. This will especially be the case if doing so is a prerequisite for receiving the new emoji pack, or whatever else it is that the people have been promised on the other side of those clicks.

We've been through this song and dance enough times that it's not a question of whether this will happen or whether users will fall for it. It's clear that it will and they will. Users do not read dialog boxes, they interpret them as noise and click through them. Operating systems can only protect the user from themselves up to a certain point, at least while retaining the ability to install third-party software.

My mom's computer(s) have been running Linux for probably 10 years now. This has kept her reasonably safe (especially as contrasted with my dad, who insists on Windows), but one time I went over to find some PDF injector-thing installed as a Chrome extension. From her POV, this "just happened".

While using a less-targeted platform helps a lot, online malfeasance is not a platform-specific problem. Pretending otherwise is kidding ourselves. Vigilance is always needed.

Re:Windows Sandbox by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:09AM (#18714046)
> some others include a Chromebook,

I.e. a web browser with a keyboard.

> an iPad

I.e. a content consumption tool, not a general-purpose computer.

> a MacBook

Fine if you can afford it.

> or even installing a Linux distro and setting it up for them such that they don't need to use the CLI to accomplish the things they want to do.

That's... possible, but tough. As someone who switched from Windows to Linux many years ago, I still see every distribution to be "leaking" the fact that it's a CLI-oriented ecosystem. They do that that especially when someone goes wrong.

All are valid alternatives if you carefully consider your parents' needs and discover they're extremely limited. But Windows would still be my first, default choice - because of a combination of its design and history, it's the cheapest commercial system that still lets you own your computing experience, and run professional software.

Re:Windows Sandbox by hawski on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:57AM (#18714536)
Most Chromebooks have Android applications now. So it's more like a browser and a tablet on steroids. Many newer ones (even cheap) have Linux support.

But of course as you said it's a game of trade offs. My father was using Windows years ago and because of constant service needs I set up Linux for him. It was easier for me to service it remotely. It was better, but far from perfect. Later on I bought him a new computer that had a Windows license, so with upgrade to Windows 10 I thought that it would be ok. My father wanted Linux back after a month or so. With newer distribution and newer computer it was much better than previously. Now it's pretty alright.

However I still think of something a bit more like ChromeOS. Then it would be quite maintaince free. Not Gallium, but a full distribution with same update model as ChromeOS.

Re:Windows Sandbox by vetinari on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:52AM (#18713959)
Yeah, because you MUST use command line when running Linux. The Linux command line committee will make sure of that /s.
Re:Windows Sandbox by zozbot123 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:50AM (#18714754)
If you start from a rock-solid distro, install an adequate DE and do troubleshooting the Windows way (i.e. just reinstall and restore your data from a manual backup whenever things go haywire - which they shouldn't, anyway), you can absolutely get away with not using the Linux CLI, ever. Is this a sensible way of using a computer system? Perhaps not. Is it better than just staying on Windows 10 (provided that Linux itself addresses your needs, of course)? Absolutely!
Re:Windows Sandbox by ezoe on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:38AM (#18714441)
Why? Major GNU/Linux based distributions have browsers, LibreOffice and most of the software ordinary people usually want.