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Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by asutekku on Saturday December 15, 2018 @10:59AM (#18688858)
I love the concept of esperanto but to be honest there are no practical uses for it. Fun language and it teaches you the concepts of others but as I said, not that useful.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by BillChapman on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:40PM (#18689670)
No practical uses! What! Over recent years I have had guided tours of Berlin, Douala (loo it up!), Yerevan and Milan in this planned language. I have discussed philosophy with a Slovene poet, humour on television with a Bulgarian TV producer. I’ve discussed what life was like in East Berlin before the wall came down and in Armenia when it was a Soviet republic, how to cook perfect spaghetti, the advantages and disadvantages of monarchy, and so on. I recommend it as a very useful and practical way to overcome language barriers.

Take an unguided wander around the net. You wil find political stuff, religious stuff, scientific stuff - all in Esperanto.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by Mediterraneo10 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:42PM (#18689976)
Your experience may serve as a rebuttal to the OP about lack of "practical use", but with your couple of posts here I feel you are being very disingenuous and leaving some key things out that would put Esperanto in a bad light. Yes, the Esperanto movement does have a network of proponents around the world that is close-knit and local Esperantists are often willing to show a foreigner around. However, among them are so many weirdos and eccentrics that a person might well be served better by learning either English or the local language and getting all his hospitality and local information through that instead.

When I was active in the Esperanto movement, it was common for my fellow Esperantists to joke or kvetch about how certain kinds of political movements or bizarre lifestyles would come out in force at congresses and make everyone else cringe, or how creepy or insufferable one's Pasporta Servo host turned out to be. Something as idealistic and unfashionable as Esperanto is bound to attract more odd people than when using a language like English that is more utilitarian and has less overt shared values.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by beatgammit on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:36PM (#18690214)
There's some truth to that, but learning the local language for everywhere you want to travel is very difficult, and learning English can only get you so far.

The great thing about Esperanto is that the speakers are very enthusiastic to speak it with other people, so you'll get better than average hospitality. You're also right about the weirdos, so you need to be very careful when selecting a host.

I really like the idea of Amikumu, where you chat with people in Esperanto before meeting in person. Meeting more Esperantists is great because you can discuss experiences using Esperanto abroad.

I am marginally into the language (I lurk about on Esperanto subreddits, have done the Duolingo course, and visit Lernu.net periodically), but I wouldn't call myself fluent or anything. However, I might try to use it if I go somewhere with generally weak English skills, like Japan or parts of each Europe.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @12:30AM (#18691884)
he is probably leaving these things out because he didn't make the experience. or didn't notice it because it didn't seem out of the ordinary for him.

those wierdos and eccentrics showing up is a sign of the openness and tolerance that is lived in the esperanto community. so yes, esperanto is bound to attract those people.

eccentrics by necessity favor communities where openness and tolerance for their lifestyle is practiced. so they will gravitate to communities where they are welcome.

to the chinese for example, all western foreigners look like wierdos and eccentrics. the sideeffect is that weird and eccentric westerners in china are treated with the same respect as everyone else because the chinese for the most part can't tell the difference, unlike at home where they don't fit in.

but those eccentrics are part of the early adopters in the innovation adoption lifecycle. they have less opportunities to find acceptance elsewhere. esperanto presents an opportunity for them.

the challenge of the esperanto community is to break out of the early adopter phase and find a way to let the language appeal to the majority.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by chillacy on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:40PM (#18689959)
Compared to other conlangs, esperanto is probably the most useful. Heck, compared to some natural languages, esperanto has a unique usecase of letting you join a very passionate language diaspora with members scattered around the world.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by mycorrhizal on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:16PM (#18689234)
One practical use that has been studied (only a little) is to use Esperanto as a stepping stone to learning other languages. Essentially the idea is that you can first spend a few months learning Esperanto and that might actually speed up the total time for learning a "third" language. I believe school systems in both the UK and France have experimented with this, both with promising results.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by yorwba on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#18689474)
When you actually look at those "promising results" you'll notice that they come about by cherry-picking, not controlling for confounders (like Esperanto teachers using better teaching methods) and wishful thinking. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14848019 , which I wrote some time ago when the same topic came up.

I don't doubt that Esperanto is easy to learn, but there's no evidence to suggest that learning Esperanto helps more with learning another language than spending the same time learning that language instead.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by myth2018 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:18PM (#18689575)
I'm not aware of any controlled studies bringing evidence on this as well. But there seems to be lots of anecdotal evidence.

One may argue that people who learn Esperanto are naturally inclined to language learning anyway, but what you actually see is people who allegedly have always struggled with languages and, after giving Esperanto a try, they begin to find more effective ways of learning foreign languages in general.

It worked for me at least.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @02:18AM (#18692130)
i think the point is that your first foreign language is harder to learn because you are unfamiliar with the idea and the process. the time and effort it takes can be demotivating.

once you learned one language, learning others should be easier because you have overcome that first mental challenge.

introducing esperanto as that first foreign language should provide some early success that motivate the students in their language learning.

that's the theory anyways. we do need some more studies to verify that.

any second language makes it easier to learn a third one.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by mycorrhizal on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:51PM (#18689725)
Thanks for the link and extra info! You have definitely looked at this more carefully than I have.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by myth2018 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:33PM (#18689320)
Chinese schools used to teach Esperanto during the 80's. I've asked some esperanto speakers about it and some of them say that Esperanto was seen as a bridge to learning English and other western languages, which are of course very different than chinese languages.

If you feel interested, google about Esperanto propaedeutic properties.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by porpoisely on Saturday December 15, 2018 @11:49PM (#18691784)
We used to have a stepping stone to learn other languages. It was called latin. For some odd reason, we stopped teaching it in our public schools here. But the wealthy private schools still teach latin and give their kids and enormous leg up in their studies.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by ghaff on Sunday December 16, 2018 @01:10AM (#18691977)
As someone who took Latin in high school, the stepping stone argument always felt a bit disingenuous. There seemed to be a component of not wanting to admit it was being taught primarily because it was part of a traditional Classics education among Western upper classes. As opposed to a useful skill of some sort.

I have absolutely nothing against traditional Classics though I’m not sure how good a fit they are with typical US public high schools today. However I’m pretty skeptical that a few years of Latin—as opposed to Spanish, German, or French (which I also took) or something else entirely—is a uniquely good use of time.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by porpoisely on Sunday December 16, 2018 @10:12AM (#18693372)
I absolutely agree with spanish, german, french or any other language being a good stepping stone to learn other languages. Not only that learning another language helps you better understand your own language.

However, what makes latin special is that spanish, german, french, english and many european languages have significant history with latin as a language and has been tremendously influenced by latin. And it's not just language. Much of science, literature, music, math, etc has strong latin roots.

If there is one language that offers the most bang for the buck, it's latin. It's something every kid should be taught in my opinion, especially in the west since latin influenced nearly every language and academic field.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @02:24AM (#18692143)
any second language is a stepping stone to later languages. by the time you learn latin and then french, you might as well have learned french directly and then german or chinese.

esperanto is different because it is easier to learn, so instead of taking years to mastery, you are done in a few months, and teachers can focus on proper learning techniques without fearing that students get demotivated because it takes so long. then you can apply those techniques to the next languages and hopefully come out ahead

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by ghaff on Sunday December 16, 2018 @03:10AM (#18692238)
To echo others, I would need to be convinced that learning a synthetic language that, for most of us, will never have any direct practical use has some unique pedagogical value. For me, learning an actual language, however imperfectly, that has a history, literature, and in many cases current speakers and culture seems far more interesting. But, then, I never had any interest in learning Klingon or elvish either.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @03:22AM (#18692266)
right, we need more research to verify that theory.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by qwerty456127 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @04:36PM (#18690473)
Is learning Esperanto then Dutch faster than Spanish then Dutch for an English or speaker?
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @02:30AM (#18692160)
that would be an obvious yes because esperanto is easier than spanish.

but also, dutch is similar enough to english that learning spanish will not help you much at all, other than that third language effect which can be had with any other language too.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by wishinghand on Saturday December 15, 2018 @11:57AM (#18689138)
> to be honest there are no practical uses for it

I find this hard to believe as a conclusion anyone could come to. A universal shared language for international communication? People can keep their mother tongue yet no matter how provincial it may be, can still communicate effectively with the rest of the world?

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by karmasimida on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:35PM (#18689333)
> A universal shared language for international communication

Practical, but we already got one, that is English. Even this post itself is written in English to reach bigger audience.

And I would argue Esperanto is hardly universal for the world, more for european languages.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by wenc on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#18689477)
True, and some people would even call it "globish". (as in "globe") It's a form of non-native English that is as close to being universal as the world has ever seen.

This is particularly noticeable in Europe. Due to the European Union's thinning/erasure of borders, there is an order of magnitude more inter-European travel and mobility than 10 years ago. And the most widely understood language between these travelers is English. In Barcelona, vendors would speak to Dutch and Chinese tourists in English. Even in Paris, famous for its disdain of English, the language is fairly widely spoken, not so much to accommodate the British, but visitors from the rest of Europe and the world.

Folks quickly figured out that instead of learning multiple European languages (and even then, only be able to communicate with other Europeans and people from former European colonies), they could instead learn English and be able to communicate with not only Europeans but people from Asia, the Middle East, etc.

English is used even among people of the same ethnicity. I was with a friend at a restaurant in Chicago's Chinatown, and noticed that my Cantonese-speaking friend had a hard time conveying her order to the Mandarin-speaking mainland Chinese waiter, so they both switched to English. The communication was successful.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by ghaff on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:52PM (#18689432)
And for Europe, we had Latin before that for scholars and French for diplomats as it was largely Europe’s court language.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by beatgammit on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:37PM (#18690221)
I've heard it's reasonably popular in Japan, so there's that.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by karmasimida on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:44PM (#18690255)
Only if you consider that 10% of Japanese vocabulary is already English or English-originated (as Gairaigo).
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by hannob on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:27PM (#18689282)
> A universal shared language for international communication?

That is a very good idea. But in order to be successful such a language needs to be spoken by a large share of people internationally. The best language we have for this is English. It's not perfect, because in large parts of the world, particularly in Asia, many people don't speak it. But it's far better suited than Esperanto in almost every imaginable way.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by the_duke on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:34PM (#18689326)
Before WW1, Esperanto was actually becoming popular and was taught in schools in parts of Europe.

The nationalistic policies around WW1 and after put a stop to it.

I think it's a tremendous shame... it would be so nice to communicate with everyone in a simple language.

Note that such a language would not actually need to be actively spoken in normal live much. It just needs to be simple enough to be learn in a short amount of time and to have international backing so it is taught in schools.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by drugme on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:50PM (#18689419)
Note that such a language would not actually need to be actively spoken in normal life much.

Almost by definition - if a language isn't "spoken much" - it isn't really language. But rather a collection of rules and definitions.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by chillacy on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:27PM (#18689901)
Latin isn't spoken much and we still call it a language: a dead language. Esperanto is still spoken, it's just a particularly uncommon (but not even the smallest) language.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by drugme on Monday December 17, 2018 @02:01PM (#18701178)
OK, I'll correct myself:

"If a language is (or never has been) spoken much..."

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @01:03AM (#18704818)
http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/m.html gives a better definition of a dead language: one that does not naturally evolve because it does not have any native speakers, but only second language speakers.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by 4thaccount on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:07PM (#18689528)
Also, many Esperanto speakers were killed in WWII as Hitler hated it because the inventor was Jewish and for nationalist reasons and Stalin because he thought they would be spies. I recall Zamenhoff's children died in concentration camps. Truly horrifying.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:10PM (#18689540)
i can think of a few aspects that make esperanto more suitable:

it is easier to learn, even for non-europeans.

it is nationally (edit: i used the wrong term 'politically' before) and culturally neutral.

english wasn't always the most used language for international communication. until a century ago, that was french.

english replaced french because of the success of british colonialism.

there is no reason why some day esperanto could not take its place.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by Mediterraneo10 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:04PM (#18689779)
Esperanto is not really politically neutral. Like other such projects for world peace and understanding, its proponents tend to be overwhelmingly on the left, even if disputes might occasionally arise within it between leftist factions. I spent some years in the Esperanto movement and attended a large number of Esperanto congresses and meetups, and I worked with the main organization representing Esperanto (UEA). In this community, advocacy for world federalism or closer EU integration was heard extremely frequently and such ideas were a common theme for conventions. On one hand, I thought that was cool, because I myself was sympathetic to such causes, but at the same time it was obvious that there was a strong enmity towards any ideas associated with the right and that this "neutral" movement was not as open to just any man off the street around the world as it wanted to seem.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:35PM (#18689939)
you make a fair argument, but i think it is worth distinguishing esperanto the language, and and the community of esperanto speakers. there is nothing in the language itself that enforces these political views.

it is for example conceivable that people could use esperanto as a communication language with foreigners to avoid english domination out of a conservative isolationist motivation.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by Mediterraneo10 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:50PM (#18690012)
As things stand, your theoretical conservative isolationist is unlikely to even meet a fellow Esperanto speaker outside of the community of Esperanto speakers. There are so few Esperanto speakers that if one wanted to actively use the language in any way, one would have to engage with its community. Some Esperantists do keep their distance from the core, rather fanatic community and they try to use the language purely as a means of communication or as a game. However, the actual organizations that provide most of the infrastructure to actively use the language are bound quite closely with the community, and a certain set of shared cultural behaviours and acceptable political boundaries has now arisen within that community.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:21PM (#18689872)
sorry, i used the wrong term, i didn't mean 'political' in terms of political factions or streams, but in terms of nations. (like it is used in political map vs geographical map)

i edited my post to clarify.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by spaced-out on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:28PM (#18689623)
Esperanto is definitely not culturally neutral. How many words come from European languages vs non European languages?
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Sunday December 16, 2018 @09:02AM (#18693059)
with culture i don't mean the words in the language but the culture of the speakers. english is dominated by speakers with western (american,british,australian) culture.

by comparison, the speakers of latin are all dead. so, while latin has a rich historic culture, it is not dominated by any living culture.

likewise, esperanto is not dominated by any living culture because its speakers come from all over the world.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by drugme on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:00PM (#18689152)
A universal shared language for international communication?

In theory, yes - but not in practice.

Which is precisely what the above commenter was saying.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:58PM (#18689479)
why not? because not many people speak it?

that would be like saying, phones are not practical because not everyone has one. or maybe facebook or google+ are not practical because not everyone is on them.

but that is a limitation that has nothing to do with any inherent quality of esperanto, only with it's lack of popularity which is something that can be changed without needing to change esperanto itself.

Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by drugme on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:31PM (#18689636)
There's a big distinction between "not many people" versus "not everyone".
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by em-bee on Saturday December 15, 2018 @02:27PM (#18689903)
yes, but all of these at one point had not many people use them. if that were a problem in itself, then they would never have become popular.
Re:Today is Esperanto Day – here’s why I learned it by krapp on Saturday December 15, 2018 @12:06PM (#18689183)
Esperanto is no more "universal" or "shared" than any other European or Romance language, which is to say its idioms are "universal" only to a limited subset of humanity.

Might as well just tell the world to keep using English, or make Westerners learn Mandarin.