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Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by ancorevard on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:41PM (#18683321)
Occupational licensing has gone way too far, and is in-fact a regressive tax on the poor. Both on the part of the worker and the consumer.

In California you need a license to cut hair (Many European countries are actually more free in this aspect compared to the US). However, you are exempt if you only shampoo hair!

To get a license you need to enroll in a program that takes at least 9 months, and you need to complete 1,600 hours of training...

...to cut hair.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by int_19h on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:40PM (#18684498)
The worst part is, we then enforce these laws with SWAT raids.

"In August 2010, for example, a team of heavily armed Orange County, Florida, sheriff’s deputies raided several black- and Hispanic-owned barbershops in the Orlando area. More raids followed in September and October. The Orlando Sentinel reported that police held barbers and customers at gunpoint and put some in handcuffs, while they turned the shops inside out. The police raided a total of nine shops and arrested thirty-seven people. By all appearances, these raids were drug sweeps. Shop owners told the Sentinel that police asked them where they were hiding illegal drugs and weapons. But in the end, thirty-four of the thirty-seven arrests were for “barbering without a license,” a misdemeanor for which only three people have ever served jail time in Florida. The most disturbing aspect of the Orlando raids was that police didn’t even attempt to obtain a legal search warrant. They didn’t need to, because they conducted the raids in conjunction with the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. Despite the guns and handcuffs, under Florida law these were licensure inspections, not criminal searches, so no warrants were necessary."

(Radley Balko, "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces")

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by vertexFarm on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:03PM (#18685715)
This is one of the most quintessentially American paragraphs I've read. Jesus.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by int_19h on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:53PM (#18686754)
That entire book is filled with stuff like this. I would highly recommend it to anybody interested in the subjects upon which it touches (war on drugs, civil asset forfeiture, police militarization in general).

Here's another interesting case that I found about from the book, but which was notable enough to even get its own Wikipedia article. You be the judge of how quintessentially American that is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor...

For me, the most scary part of it was the final words of the person responsible for it: "Quite frankly, we'd do it again. Tonight."

Another interesting thing was the long-term consequences. Because the target of the raid was a well-off, politically connected individual, they used their clout to mobilize support for a bill that required Maryland to produce an annual report on how its SWAT operates - where it is deployed, legal authority (arrest warrant, search warrant, exigent circumstances etc), what kind of crime, if any, it was targeting, and whether entry was forced or not. There's some eye-opening stuff there, like the fact that most SWAT deployments are serving search warrants for non-violent crimes, but they use forced entry more often than not:

http://goccp.maryland.gov/reports-publications/law-enforceme...

But even more interesting was the reaction of law enforcement agencies (and their unions) in the state to this bill - they were all adamantly opposed to it. It passed anyway, but only with a 5-year sunset clause as a concession; it was never renewed.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by bradbatt on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:33PM (#18685890)
That is an eye-opening book.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by vorpalhex on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:46PM (#18683374)
Because improperly sanitizing barber tools can absolutely spread disease and you're waving sharp objects near somebodies face, including a child who may not sit still.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jdietrich on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:51PM (#18684009)
The question is not just whether licensing is necessary per se, but also whether those licensing requirements are reasonable, proportionate and effective.

Do you really need 1,600 hours of training to learn how to sanitise a pair of scissors? Does that training actually make people less likely to stab someone in the head? Are there alternative routes for hairdressers to demonstrate their competence?

To my mind, it seems far more reasonable for these issues to be addressed through routine inspections and the prompt investigation of complaints. Qualifications may provide supporting evidence for the competence of a practitioner, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jandrese on Friday December 14, 2018 @05:07PM (#18685292)
1,600 hours does seem excessive. That's basically a full year full time course with a summer break. There is a lot to learn beyond how to operate a pair of scissors (how not to chemically burn people when doing dye jobs for example), but it seems incredible that there is enough material to fill a full school year.

Maybe a big chunk of it is an apprenticeship? You learn the skills over a few weeks and then spend the rest of the year practicing before you're fully licensed?

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by lightedman on Friday December 14, 2018 @07:50PM (#18686290)
"but it seems incredible that there is enough material to fill a full school year."

Ever try doing a professional hairstyle? It takes several hundred hours just to learn one. It takes several hours alone just to perform one, many times. I used to be a hair model. I had to sit in a chair in front of about 6,000 students at a casino while the designer explained his haircut to them. That was five hours alone, and my hair hadn't been touched. The next four hours were spent actually working on my hair.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jandrese on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:44AM (#18716916)
It seems kind of crazy that you would have to go through a catalog and learn each individual style instead of learning a toolbag of techniques and piecing each do out of a combination of those techniques.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by lambda on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:29PM (#18683785)
From what I have gathered, much of the reason behind the licensing process for barbers is for shaving, with a straight razor, which does have considerably greater risks of cuts and infection.

However, very few people go to a barber for a shave anymore. It used to be that most people would go to a barber for a shave, and shaving yourself was unusual. Since the advent of the safety razor, cartridge razor, and electric razor, it's the other way around, where it is unusual to go to a barber for a shave. But in many states, training on shaving is a large part of the training for barbers.

In fact, it also used to be the case that barbers were the surgeons as well, though I don't know how much of that time overlapped with the licensing era.

I don't know how much of the remaining licensing process for modern barbers has to do with actual safety concerns, or is just inherited from the times of barbers being surgeons or doing the majority of shaving with straight razors.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by austin_y on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:22PM (#18683718)
Restaurant employees, preparing or serving food, could spread disease or cause harm, but are not obligated to be licensed. Would you support requiring cooks, servers, wait staff, etc., to undergo licensing?
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jackpirate on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:52PM (#18684019)
They most definitely are licensed at the state, county, and city level. They require food handlers permits, and possible other certifications depending on the specific activity.

That said, these licenses are typically about $10 and can be completed by online website in about an hour. I would expect something similar could work for hair cutting as well, but probably not for all the more exotic things like hair dying.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by moate on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:45PM (#18684539)
Former Chef here from the great state of NJ: I have never been licensed. I've worked for some of the better restaurants in the state (including NYT 4 star reviewed and James Beard nominated chefs). I've never known a licensed chef.

The restaurants require licensing out the ass, and I know there are ABC (alcohol handling) certifications required for servers, but cooks don't. At least one person (typically a manager) needs to be ServSafe certified, but that's not a requirement for every worker.

Meanwhile, a hairdresser must be licensed before they can step into a salon and do work. My sister and wife both worked in the industry, and I promise you they would both scoff at the idea of a 1 hour form/test for someone cutting hair. There's a ton of hygiene related things that they need to know to prevent disease transmission from cutting and handling hair daily.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jjulius on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:48PM (#18685138)
Whether or not you need a food handler's card is likely state-specific.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by jjulius on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:45PM (#18685114)
Cooks and other individuals have to get their food handlers cards. The class is fairly simple - you show up for a few hours and then take a test - but they still have to have a valid food handlers card in order to be employed.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by maxxxxx on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:15PM (#18683664)
By that standard we should also require 1600 hours of training for driving a car.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by mywittyname on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:31PM (#18683805)
Commercial Drivers Licenses are a requirement for anyone driving a vehicle over 26,000# or towing more than 10,000#.

You're plenty free to cut your own hair and that of your friends and family without a license. And you can drive your family around with minimal licensing. But there's a threshold you cross where licensing becomes mandatory.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by maxxxxx on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:37PM (#18683870)
Driving is not like cutting hair at home.

I can drive a car in public and kill other people, not only my own family. Considering how safe cars are today it's even more likely my family will be safe while I kill other people.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by mywittyname on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:10PM (#18684197)
Driving a car requires licensing though. I needed to go through a driving class, 24h of driving with a certified instructor, and six months of supervised driving under provisional permit before being granted my driving license. That's pretty rigorous considering how easy driving is.

Granted, these requirements loosen after a person reaches a certain age. But they still need to demonstrate an ability to drive and knowledge of the rules of the road before being licensed.

A CDL takes a lot training to earn, and you have to demonstrate a clean driving record for the previous 10 years.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by CryptoPunk on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:26AM (#18687341)
Safely driving is far harder than safely cutting hair and the consequences of failing at it are incomparably worse than the consequences of failing at safe hair cutting.

Driving is one of the most dangerous things that ordinary people engage in. You're hundreds of times more likely to kill someone driving than doing any other activity, by virtue of the relative deadliness of motor vehicle accidents, and how much driving the ordinary person does.

That you need 1,600 hours of instruction to cut hair in California, far in excess of what any jurisdiction requires to get a license to drive, is the most blatant demonstration of the injustice of occupational licensing.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by conanbatt on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:04PM (#18683554)
Just make the barbers that are "certified by the state" on one side, and "the others" on the other side. Then people pay for their preferences.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by ashelmire on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:48PM (#18683405)
Not wiping your ass properly and washing your hands can absolutely spread disease. I think we need a license for using public toilets.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by vorpalhex on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:57PM (#18683492)
Yeah, so you might manage to spread the flu through secondary contact and that wouldn't be great. It's not as bad as spreading lice, or several serious bacterial or fungal infections that can do a lot of damage.

We should also really encourage people to wash their hands because that's super important, especially in environments like hospitals and daycares.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by dv_dt on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:16PM (#18683667)
We have restaurant food and safety inspections as the non-hyperbolic implementation of this as applied to preparers.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:25PM (#18683752)
Fine, which is good, but none of those restaurant workers had to go through hundreds/thousands of hours of training to get licensed.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by Matticus_Rex on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:01PM (#18683526)
And literally no one who knows anything about the industry thinks that requires more than a few hours of classes.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by Jarb on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:24PM (#18683739)
It depends. I would argue for licensing in fields where improper training can affect lives, safety, and welfare, e.g. Doctors, Mechanics, Engineers, Pilots, etc. We need some kind of way to verify that an individual who proclaims to be a professional in potentially harmful fields has received proper training and can demonstrate that they can perform their work safely. I don't know enough about the intricacies of hairdressing, but I could definitely see the case be made for at least some kind of training, given that they regularly handle caustic chemicals (think relaxers), heating devices, and sharp objects (i.e. straight-razors). Maybe a certificate would suffice, but I don't know. On the other hand I would agree that requiring a florist to be licensed, as the article mentions, is probably going too far and most likely used to stifle competition.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by emn13 on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:13PM (#18684242)
I wonder if licensing really even is the right way to avoid harm even in industries like aviation and medicine. At least: licensing in its current form, which is pretty all encompassing.

If licensing were merely focused on knowing your own limitations, avoiding harm, and transparency rather than being all mixed up with general education and sometimes extremely overbroad vocational training that is only tenuously connection to the actual vocation... I'd be less skeptical.

Obviously simply dumping licensing and having a snake-oil free for all is probably not an improvement. But the choice shouldn't need to be "no regulation at all" and "status quo regulation".

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by firstplacelast on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:35PM (#18684450)
So then any software engineer working at facebook and google needs to be licensed? As we have seen facebook and search results can easily affect lives.

Additionally, software engineers that work on self-driving cars, rockets, any healthcare systems, etc, etc, etc?

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by arcbyte on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:08PM (#18684183)
Do you inspect the license of the person who cuts your hair every time you get a haircut?

No, you don't.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by Jarb on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:29PM (#18684394)
How do you know what I do? Admittedly, it doesn't happen very often, but you can bet your butt I'll at least take a cursory glance at a barber's licence before I trust him/her with giving me a straight-razor shave.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by arcbyte on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:19PM (#18684882)
I can print one off in 5 minutes.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by gaius on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:27PM (#18684956)
would argue for licensing in fields where improper training can affect lives, safety, and welfare, e.g. Doctors, Mechanics, Engineers, Pilots, etc

And software developers working on anything that handles personal data.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by reidjs on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:28PM (#18683781)
That actually seems pretty reasonable to me. If cutting hair were easy then barbershops wouldn’t exist right? It’s a perfectly valid trade and I don’t see a problem with enforcing certification.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by mywittyname on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:38PM (#18683883)
I was good friends with a stylist. She told me the training she received and it's pretty in depth. Cutting hair involves a lot more than operating sharp objects within an inch of another person's head.

Most of their income comes from dying, high-lights, etc, which involve applying harsh chemicals to another person's hair. They need to understand what can be mixed safely and how to identify issues. Plus there's the whole sanitation aspect.

Even the person who wipes your butt in a hospital has more training than a stylist.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by berberous on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:05PM (#18684162)
So have a minimum required certification that covers just sanitation and safe use of chemicals. The market can sort out the rest (i.e. the skill of the stylist).
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by warkdarrior on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:53PM (#18684630)
That's exactly what we have now. There is no certification for "good stylist," "excellent stylist," or "average stylist."
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by berberous on Friday December 14, 2018 @05:21PM (#18685410)
Right, but my point is that California basically requires a full year's worth of training (1600 hours) in order to be licensed, which seems to cost approx. $16k at some of the schools I just looked at. From looking at one random course book, that consists of:

- 10 hours of training on state law - 75 hours of training on infection control - 200 hours of training on chemical hair control - another 1,265 hours on other topics (shampooing, hair shaping, hair coloring, styling, business skills, etc.).

Perhaps those first three areas are important perquisites to being licensed, but the extra 1200 hours seem like something the market could sort out without being a prerequisite for receiving a license.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by Consultant32452 on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:36PM (#18683861)
How does the difficulty of the trade imply the need for state enforced certification?

In my personal opinion, I'm happy to rely on the reputation of a branded salon/barber shop/individual stylist. I've had both good hair cuts and bad hair cuts from state certified barbers. As far as I can tell the state doesn't provide any value to me other than limiting my choices. To the extent we might be concerned about poor people cutting people's hair without the state's permission, and doing so with non-optimum sanitary practices... well... poor people are already doing this and it doesn't seem to be causing any real public health crisis. I say we give it a shot in some locales and see what happens.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by mcguire on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:07PM (#18686592)
I'll wager you also haven't had chemical burns to your scalp, either. Weirdly, there was just a thread on Berkson's paradox: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18667423
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by Consultant32452 on Saturday December 15, 2018 @03:48AM (#18687677)
I feel like this is a bias first world people have. I grew up poor, got plenty of haircuts from "a lady in the neighborhood" and never got chemical burns on my scalp, never had lice, etc. Sure, anecdata, but travel to basically any third world country where regulation is either nonexistent or unenforceable. Countless people do this every year. These things just aren't a real problem. You can get a haircut, you can get street food, etc. Basically just eat where the locals are eating and be careful about water/drinks that haven't been boiled. In other words, drink hot tea instead of water, or bottled stuff.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by tropdrop on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:58PM (#18684081)
The argument to rid licensing for music therapy or florists (as per article) seems stronger than for a hair salon. Do you know the difference between cutting straight, thin hair and thick, curly hair? What about kinky (usually African American) hair?

If you would like your market to be more than just those clients that request an Army buzz cut, you need to know those differences. My hair, for instance, looks terrible if given a straight chop with scissors. Because it's wavy and thick, it needs "thinning" all throughout its length to make it lie flat. Enforcing practicing on mannequins how to do just that without ruining someone's actual hair seems reasonable to me.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by moate on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:52PM (#18684619)
The purpose of licensing here isn't to ensure quality of work (how good or bad your haircut/highlights are). It's there to make sure disease isn't transmitted, and physical harm isn't inflicted.

The hours requirement could be scaled down, and the process more streamlined certainly, but the point of going to cosmetology school isn't really to learn how to style hair, although that happens, it's to pass state boards. Then you can assistant in a salon and learn how to do something economically useful.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by InGodsName on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:12PM (#18684821)
Cutting hair in a way that doesn't trasmit is actually a quality of work.

So, licensing does ensures the minimum quality.

Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by kalleboo on Saturday December 15, 2018 @01:14AM (#18687320)
You're arguing for some kind of private quality assurance scheme or yelp reviews, not a mandatory government license.
Re:Study Reveals U.S. Consumers and Economy Lose Billions to... by fjp on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:44PM (#18683941)
JFC it's because hair stylists use chemicals that can be dangerous if used incorrectly!!!