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Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ChuckMcM on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:15PM (#18658477)
I have been trying out FreeBSD 12 as a desktop using the "TrueOS" distribution[1], as a UNIX user it has been very refreshing. I did this because the Ubuntu 18.04 experience felt to me strongly that the Linux community was focused on turning the desktop into a Windows clone.

[1] https://www.trueos.org/

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by jimpudar on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:56PM (#18659315)
I love FreeBSD, so I don't think you made a bad choice, but if you ever want to try Ubuntu again go with Lubuntu instead of the Gnome based Ubuntu. It's a far better UX IMHO.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umvi on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:39PM (#18661440)
Some of the Ubuntu flavors are really nice. My current favorite is Xubuntu, though I have Lubuntu on an old laptop and I like it too.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by petre on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @01:00AM (#18661690)
I switched back to Debian/Devuan on my laptop. I also use FreeBSD and OpenSuSE on servers, along with Debian. OpenSuSE was not my choice but company policy. I've grown to like it though because it just works and zypper is quite a breeze. Not so many packages as Debian or FreeBSD though, sometimes you have to compile more exotic stuff. FreeBSD is rock solid and much more consistent than Linux, because it's a full blown OS, as opposed to a kernel with GNU software slapped over it. Linux distributions also made some questionable choices like systemd adoption.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:36PM (#18659155)
I don't think being "a Windows clone" is necessarily a bad thing. If anything, this could help to show people that Linux is not as "user-hostile" as they might have thought.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ChuckMcM on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:33PM (#18659628)
I don't think Linux becoming a "Windows clone" is necessarily a bad thing either, it is a user preference on my part. My background is UNIX workstations, which was the 'feel' that Linux had for a long time. But open source is by definition a function of those who can commit to the source base. As the Linux community has evolved so have the design tastes. I hate systemd, I understand the argument made by the systemd team for why they think it is a superior solution to what existed before, but it doesn't change my distaste for the architecture style. I look for alternatives and TrueOS was suggested and I tried it out, so far I like it.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by AsyncAwait on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:02AM (#18662644)
You're accessing a single distro, which is targeted at Windows switchover users and complaining that they cater to them more?
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by kieranph on Thursday December 13, 2018 @01:08PM (#18674525)
While Linux shouldn't be purposely user-hostile if it wants to be used in a desktop computer environment, Linux has a different purpose than emulating Windows. That's why Linux can't really be compared to something like ReactOS. It's purpose (in my opinion) is libre software and configurability options (compared to operating systems such as Windows). To change both of those in the name of proprietary software and/or forced ease of use/non-configurability would alienate the original purpose and fracture the community. That's why systemd/Poetteringware is so controversial (and GRUB2 on a much smaller scale), and the near-universal hatred of systemd among UNIX veterans for its mostly-successful monopolism over init systems (and everything else nobody on a lower-end system would ever run at once) only proves my point. While Linux's reputation as a desktop Unix-like does warrant the need for ease-of-use to truly be considered as that, there is a reason that people use Linux and Windows in different situations and environments.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by laumars on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:03PM (#18660184)
I don't think being a Windows clone helps with adoption because you often end up with people getting wound up Linux looks familiar but behaves completely differently. Then all of Linux's differences are seen as problems (because it's not behaving as expected) rather than perfectly reasonable design decisions.

I'd rather Linux look different. I'm not saying it has to look alien nor hard to use either. But different enough that when people choose to use it, they come to it with a mindset that they can't just treat it like a Windows clone.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:00PM (#18660487)
Well, MacOS behaves “completely differently,” too, so what? (By the way, Windows has been behaving completely differently from itself over the past few versions.)
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by laumars on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @07:53AM (#18663442)
I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me or not because the tone reads as if you're making a counterargument but your arguments are actually agreeing with me.

> Well, MacOS behaves “completely differently,” too, so what?

...so when people come to use OS X they don't expect it to work like Windows and thus are more tolerant to having to alter their workflow accordingly.

Which is the point I'm making about how Linux harms itself when it tried to emulate Windows too closely.

> (By the way, Windows has been behaving completely differently from itself over the past few versions.)

Yes, and people complain frequently about it. I don't see how that contradicts the point I was making.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umanwizard on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:38PM (#18659658)
Does it matter whether random people think Linux is user-hostile? Why is it important that grandma be able to use Ubuntu instead of macOS or Windows on her desktop?
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by loeg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:42PM (#18660971)
Yes! How do you think you bring new people in to the Linux community? Everyone starts somewhere, and no one is teaching Linux desktop to primary school students.

Anecdotally, the first Linux experience that I was able to install and operate myself, after a handful of prior failed attempts, was Ubuntu (2005). And a big part of that was that it was friendly to absolute beginners like myself.

Now I am a FreeBSD developer and have patches in a plethora of open source projects, including Linux. Everybody starts somewhere!

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:01PM (#18660501)
> random people

A.k.a. your “customers.”

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by akerro on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:39PM (#18659171)
Yes, TrueOS is really refreshing experience, IMO Ubuntu became windows XP with release 8.10, when I just switched away and never looked back. One thing I wish TrueOS did better was desktop integration, they decided to develop their own DE - Lumia, IMO they would do much better with Plasma5 integration.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by thomastjeffery on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @10:31PM (#18661157)
TrueOS = PC-BSD

It's been ~10 years since I used PC-BSD, but it was certainly a nice distro.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by JdeBP on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @04:24AM (#18662502)
Not quite. The desktop-specific portion of PC-BSD and TrueOS of earlier this year can now be found at Project Trident. TrueOS is built on FreeBSD, adding in OpenRC, LibreSSL, and the rest; and Project Trident is built on TrueOS. Roughly.

* http://project-trident.org./

* https://trueos.org/blog/trueosdownstream/

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by mixmastamyk on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:47PM (#18658698)
You don't say exactly why a clone is bad, but I enjoy the BSDs as well as Ubuntu Mate.
[dead]
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ChuckMcM on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:08PM (#18658899)
I have run a lot of different desktops for Linux. I don't know precisely how much of the space I've covered but all of the more "mainstream" ones. Prior to loading TrueOS and its desktop I was using xfce. Prior to that my most common desktop was KDE. I've used different Gnome variants, Unity variants, bare bones variants.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by jhcl on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:51PM (#18659275)
And non of that is used as an argument. You just yell Ubuntu 18.04 with an unspecified desktop and conclude that you like none of the Linuxes with whatever Desktop and decide without argument that you do like FreeBSD. My advise to you is to be more specific because it still doesn't make any sense.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ChuckMcM on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:27PM (#18659577)
The issues for Ubuntu 18.04 were several; Changing networking once again, additional encroachment of systemd on otherwise solved problems, new (and unneeded to me) cloud extensions that required research to turn off, Etc. My post here was not to 'slam' Ubuntu, it was to share that I had tried a Desktop version of FreeBSD (those are rare) and found it quite refreshing and familiar.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by jhcl on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:40PM (#18660052)
I am running Xubuntu 18.04 and unless one is running some cloud image one has little to adjust. I am not even defending (x)ubuntu or over TrueOS. I had been running a FreeBSD Desktop when it was called PCBSD and found it to be lacking very early on.

My opinion is that it is a nice OS for email and browsing but a developer should not have to endure the pain of the constant fight to keep up with tooling.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by iagovar on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:52PM (#18658735)
Does BSD have a packet system like APT? How about troubleshooting? I guess there is way less info out there than in Linux.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by kryptiskt on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:57PM (#18658785)
FreeBSD has the pkg package manager. There is also a ports system if you want to build from source.

There's no shortage of info or places to seek help about BSDs on the net, FreeBSD has an active forum at https://forums.freebsd.org

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by trasz on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:04PM (#18658864)
Note that those two are not really disjoint - packages are built from ports; ports are a bit like source packages in the Linux world.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by floatboth on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:47PM (#18659241)
deb/rpm source packages are a bit weird.

AUR and Gentoo Portage are very closely inspired by Ports though.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by zozbot123 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:05PM (#18658872)
The only resource you need is here:

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/

This is the first and only resource you have to hit when the question is: "how do I do that in FreeBSD?"

Section 4. answers your second question.

There is no less information about BSD than "Linux", it is simply that BSD has no advertisement or companies behind pushing it...

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ChuckMcM on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:09PM (#18658910)
The handbook is also part of the 'refreshing' part of using this system. Lots of documentation even for the more obscure parts (not saying that package management is obscure though)
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by siffland on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:23PM (#18659556)
"There is no less information about BSD than "Linux", it is simply that BSD has no advertisement or companies behind pushing it.."

Which is ironic since huge companies like netflix, sony, citrix, netapp and others make appliances based on FreeBSD and contribute a ton of code (Note, i am not at all disagreeing with your statement, i just find it ironic).

IX Systems does push behind it a lot and does advertise it: https://www.ixsystems.com

I have heard people complain because the handbook needs updating in some areas, but to be fair it is an open source handbook and people can make submissions to help make it better.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by zozbot123 on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @01:12AM (#18661732)
Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I remember IXsystems is pushing TrueOS and some other appliances like FreeNas.

My point was simply aiming to underline that there is no analogue of RHEL or Centos in the BSD world. If you decide to endorse BSD you know you are on your own and you have to contribute to the project. The BSD license seems a bit more appealing to this huge giants than the GNU one. Fixing bugs and contributing to the code base is the reason why I love the project.

For purely educational reasons you can learn more in 5 minutes using BSD, than in 10 years with Ubuntu (what is it that one learns with Ubuntu actually?).

The handbook is just awesome. If people complain about it, it is just because they never looked at how documentation is written in the average in computer science (is software documented at all?).

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by pbalau on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:09PM (#18660211)
bsd is a family of operating systems, not one. I'm going to answer based on FreeBSD, the system I have more experience with.

1) yes it does, both as source and as binaries (and the same for the base system itself) 2) not sure what you mean, but... (see next answer) 3) https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ and the man pages. Back in 2000s, the FreeBSD handbook was the best documentation for unix based systems. I could bet a fiver this is still the case.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by clan on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:27PM (#18659575)
As others mention there is PKG (and ports).

The important thing is however that even though there might be less info it is much more consistent! It is even so old fashioned that you can work without Internet how-to's - it is all there in the "man" pages.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by ori_b on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:36PM (#18660351)
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Nux on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:13PM (#18659877)
It has something, but nowhere near apt/yum. Troubleshooting is fine, it's a good OS with a great range of tools at your disposal.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:44PM (#18659211)
To be fair, there is very little difference between Linux and BSDs these days, and the choice between them is mostly the matter of personal preference. Yes, Linux is more popular and enjoys somewhat better support by third-party vendors (which could in some cases be limited to a small set of distributions), which is why it is usually a safe choice; otherwise there not much reason to choose one over another.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by siffland on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:09PM (#18659434)
FreeBSD is an entire operating system. Linux is just a kernel used in hundreds of different distros. It is correct that they are both UNIX like derivatives. FreeBSD is based on the BSD license, Linux on the GPL (this is important if you want to make something proprietary, like the PS4).

Most major Linux distros have different package managers and you download binary updates. They supply their own kernel with backports and custom compiled to stay in sync with the rest of their userland. In FreeBSD the kernel and userland are in sync so you dont have this issue.

Linux has better driver support due to more exposure to hardware.

You can go one for quite a while about how different they are, so they are very different. But you are right it is user preference.

(I excluded systemd and init to avoid a holy war)

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by loeg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:34PM (#18660345)
> In FreeBSD the kernel and userland are in sync so you dont have this issue.

This is true for the base system, but not necessarily true for ports / pkg. You can end up with an inconsistent pkg collection, unfortunately.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umanwizard on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:40AM (#18662061)
Of course, but this is true for any OS. Some random freeware you download isn't magically going to be in sync with your release of Windows, either.

In FreeBSD at least there is a real, fully-featured, usable OS out of the box, all consistent, in one source tree at /usr/src which is quite easy to read, change, and build. Unlike most GNU/Linux distros where each random thing like "grep" is its own package developed by its own separate group of people.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by loeg on Thursday December 13, 2018 @11:37PM (#18678508)
Allow me to clarify: the way FreeBSD ports are built, updated, and pushed to mirrors means that ABI compatibility may sneak in accidentally and that updating subsets of your installed package base is unreliable and may introduce, e.g., applications that depend on missing SONAMEs.

Linux distros avoid this problem by separating the process of committing to an individual port/source package; building that individual package, and possibly rebuilding dependencies; and pushing out updates, which are atomic and can contain an updated library and all of its dependencies. My experience is that Linux package managers (dnf/rpm anyway) are better at catching operations that would introduce broken ABIs, as well.

In contrast, the FreeBSD ports model is to invoke poudriere periodically and rebuild all ports at once, then push the entire set out to mirrors. There is no automation that checks for ABI changes in libraries, and pkg(1) does not do a great job of confirming that a library upgrade does not break installed programs (or other libraries) via SONAME bump; much less symbol changes not reflected in SONAME.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by toast0 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:21PM (#18660589)
Sure, but you would never run into having the wrong version of ifconfig, because it's not distributed through ports, it's in in the same repo as the kernel, so they are distributed together.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by loeg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:45PM (#18660985)
Yep, I believe that is consistent with my earlier comment :-).
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by siffland on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @09:26AM (#18664113)
What is awesome with FreeBSD is when you can do a

rm -Rf /var/db/pkg/* /usr/local/* /usr/ports/distfiles/*

reboot the system and all the non OS packages (installed via ports and packages) are gone and you can start over (reboot is probably optional).

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:33PM (#18659622)
> Linux is just a kernel

Well, this mantra is really getting old - because when people say "Linux" they almost never talk about Linux-the-kernel. Which is also why, for instance, nobody calls Android "Linux", but when referring to Ubuntu, Slackware, etc., they do.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umanwizard on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:53PM (#18659752)
You are misunderstanding. It actually makes a huge difference.

Let's compare apples to apples: Ubuntu vs. FreeBSD.

In Ubuntu there is a kernel made by one group (the Linux project), a bunch of userland tools and C compiler made by another group (the GNU project), desktop environment made by the GNOME project, etc. etc.

Whereas FreeBSD is just FreeBSD. It is one project, in one source tree, maintained by one group of people. (The biggest exception to this is the C compiler -- it is a third-party project which gets imported into the main tree. But that's a minor thing compared to Ubuntu which does this for everything.)

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by laumars on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:58PM (#18660157)
That's not really the best of examples because the C compiler and desktop environments are not part of FreeBSD's base system, let alone developed by FreeBSD devs. In that regard Ubuntu and FreeBSD are similar.

I'd have probably gone with init daemons, ABIs and other core systems. Maybe mention how some of the base CLI tools differ (eg GNU has slightly different flags and rules for ordering them for `cp`, `find`, `ps`, etc).

FreeBSD is a bit of a gateway drug in that it's the most like GNU of all the BSDs. Had you use OpenBSD as your point of comparison then the differences would have been easier to describe. But ultimately you're always going to get some cross-pollination across all the POSIX platforms (eg GNU/Linux uses OpenBSD's OpenSSH; FreeBSD has a bunch of GNU tools; and all of the above platforms will run most DEs, Apache projects, etc). That's a good thing though - it was the point of POSIX.

I just wish there wasn't so many differences with syscalls - but that's moan about a very specific problem I'm having on a current hobby project.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umanwizard on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:34AM (#18662034)
The C compiler is in fact part of the FreeBSD base system (if it weren't, you would need to install a port just to update from source. You don't.) You are right that it's one of the few pieces that is developed outside the project (and periodically imported into the tree).

It is, on the other hand, fully supported. Bugs in the C compiler are considered bugs in the OS and will be fixed.

I don't need a desktop environment or care about having one, so it not being part of the core OS doesn't bother me.

I'll copy-and-paste my thoughts on why I like FreeBSD from an earlier comment I made:

"Every one I have used installs the source code to the entire OS in /usr/src and make it very easy to change and recompile the system. On the BSDs I mentioned, if you don't understand how something works or you want to fix some bug, it's usually pretty easy to go find the source code, read it and learn how it works, and fix it. On most Linux-based OSs you would have to go figure out which random organization makes the component that has a bug (Linux project for the kernel, GNU for a lot of utilities, zillions of others for everything else), figure out how to download and build the source and install it into your distro (which is probably totally unsupported since your distro will expect to be using RPMs or DEBs rather than random stuff installed from tarballs...)

This is the most salient feature of the modern pc BSDs to me. It's impossible to describe how different it feels to be truly in control of your system and understand/change it however you want."

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by laumars on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:47AM (#18662102)
Preaching to the choir there; im a fully paid up FreeBSD contributor and use it on several personal systems. It’s a great platform to use :)

The reason I brought the DE into the equation was simply because it was being compared against Ubuntu. I don’t really think Ubuntu is the best case study there either to be honest but I’m just following on from the post that preceded me.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:51PM (#18660442)
> the C compiler

Or any desktop environment, for that matter, or much of everything else of any importance for the end user.

Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by laumars on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:15AM (#18661972)
This is literally what I just said. Including the desktop environment example.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by umanwizard on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:59PM (#18659790)
How much have you used {Free,Open,Net}BSD? I find the experience to be completely different from that of using any of the Linux distros I've tried, and I'm wondering what you find similar about them...
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by beezle on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:41PM (#18660065)
Slakware historically has been closest to a BSD feel of the Linux distros
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by GalacticDomin8r on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:46PM (#18660696)
Maybe the init system in the 90's was similar when Slack was compared to contemporary Linux distros. There is very little modern resemblance. I wish this perception would go away. Spend a day with both and I'd put money on an honest person never making this claim again.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by beezle on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:41PM (#18687082)
Late in reply - I switched off from Slack to FreeBSD around 2006. Perhaps things have changed, but Slackware generally followed the BSD conventions of what goes where as opposed to say RedHat.
Re:FreeBSD 12.0 is now available by Koshkin on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:52PM (#18660446)
> completely different

No way.