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Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by kop316 on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:32AM (#18647735)
I respectfully disagree on Google being entirely transparent about tracking location, especially if you run Android + Google Play Services. I have a tablet (Pixel C) that runs LineageOS + Google Play Services and a Phone (Nexus 5x) that runs LineageOS vanilla (no MicroG, no UnifiedNLP, no Google Play Services). Some things I have noted:

- When you install MicroG/Google Play Services, they take over location services (i.e. they run in /system/priv-app, and if you disable their location, location on the device is disabled totally).

- Android by default has the default on option to scan wifi and Bluetooth when you turn them off to find wifi/bluetooth and coorelate it to your location.

- On my Pixel C, when if I try "high accuracy" or "battery saver" mode Location services, Google Play has tried to force me to agree to their location tracking and I have disagreed every single time. Location services does not work if I use "device only" (which is supposed to only use GPS).

- I have noted that on my phone now, if I disable location and then reenable it when I have moved more than 20-30 miles, the GPS has to reacquire the signal and can take up to 2 minutes (I also tried it when I drove several hundred miles, it took several minutes to reacquire). This is indicative of the GPS module being off totally. This was not so when it had Google Play Services on, it was able to reacquire my location extremely quickly, sometimes almost instantaneously even if I moved a long distance. I suspect that Google Play was still tracking my location even if I turned off location services (due to it totally controlling my location).

- EDIT: Another interesting note is that on my phone has had location services off and then turned just back on (i.e. no GPS lock), it appears to give the last time GPS was acquired as my current location. OSMAnd shows that location but says it doesn't know my location, but other apps do not realize that. I am suspecting that Android does not necessarily have a "stale" location, just the last reported location.

Putting my tin foil hat, I hypothesize Google anonymously tracks your location even if your location services if off (allowing them to do traffic, how busy a restaurant is, etc.).

EDIT: As correctly pointed out, networked assisted GPS is a thing, and may also play into the differences in GPS reacquiring. I believe that network assisted GPS is in AOSP. When I turn on and off GPS in Android, it appears to have the almanac for where to look for satellites based on SatStat, and how quickly my phone acquires the GPS signal is a function of where it used to be compared to where it is now. In addition, UnifiedNLP [1] scans for networks/cell towers and correlates it to location, it does not appear to implement networked assisted GPS. [1] https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by ddeck on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:14AM (#18647993)
>if I disable location and then reenable it when I have moved more than 20-30 miles, the GPS has to reacquire the signal and can take up to 2 minutes (I also tried it when I drove several hundred miles, it took several minutes to reacquire). This is indicative of the GPS module being off totally. This was not so when it had Google Play Services on, it was able to reacquire my location extremely quickly, sometimes almost instantaneously even if I moved a long distance. I suspect that Google Play was still tracking my location even if I turned off location services

This is more likely access to network assisted GPS.

To know your location, the receiver needs the GPS ephemeris and almanac data (basically the status/location/trajectories of the GPS satellites). This is transmitted by the satellites themselves, but extremely slowly (50 bps with the entire navigation message taking 12.5 minutes)#.

To speed things up substantially (almost instant vs minutes), this info can be delivered over the network instead. I presume that in your case it was being provided over the network as part of the Play services.

# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals#Navigation_message

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by kop316 on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:31AM (#18648126)
Heh, interesting. My assumption is that even network assisted GPS is a part of AOSP versus Play Service. This assumption was that UnifiedNLP [1] scans for networks/cell towers and correlates it to location, it does not appear to implement networked assisted GPS.

[1] https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by reaperducer on Monday December 10, 2018 @04:04PM (#18651153)
To know your location, the receiver needs the GPS ephemeris and almanac data (basically the status/location/trajectories of the GPS satellites). This is transmitted by the satellites themselves, but extremely slowly (50 bps with the entire navigation message taking 12.5 minutes)

Thanks for explaining that. It explains why when I interfaced a GPS receiver yanked out of a 2001 minivan it took so long to lock into a location with my Palm Pilot.

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by Despegar on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:53AM (#18647862)
>Putting my tin foil hat, I hypothesize Google anonymously tracks your location even if your location services if off (allowing them to do traffic, how busy a restaurant is, etc.).

This has already been reported.

https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by JustSomeNobody on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:50AM (#18647842)
A-GPS is a feature. It exists because GPS is so slow.
Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by dhimes on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:44AM (#18648205)
Also because GPS is unreliable in cities with tall buildings that obscure the satellites. This is important in the case of needing to make a 911 call. I don't know what the laws are around mobile phones needing to be able to place a 911 call (I know you shouldn't have to guess a passcode to do it, or at least that used to be the case), but it's possible that some of these 'location-on' things are to comply with the law.
Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by bad_user on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:29AM (#18648541)
Indeed. When I visited New York and Chicago I was surprised to find that GPS is totally unreliable. I would find myself walking several street corners without getting a signal.

I'm used to European cities, crowded, but without skyscrapers and in my city GPS is very reliable, but I realized that's only because we don't have tall buildings.

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by azinman2 on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:50AM (#18649172)
Luckily WiFi based location is usually shockingly accurate.
Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by Puer on Monday December 10, 2018 @01:49PM (#18650191)
Not to mention they buried their option to turn off location tracking on Google Maps within some legal submenu in the app, instead of in the privacy settings menu. If that qualifies as "transparent" I don't know what the word means anymore.
Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by isoprophlex on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:01PM (#18650284)
The technical need for assisted GPS notwithstanding..:

> - Android by default has the default on option to scan wifi and Bluetooth when you turn them off to find wifi/bluetooth and coorelate it to your location.

What the actual fuck?!

Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by kop316 on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:09PM (#18650352)
Re:Companies use smartphone locations to help advertisers an... by isoprophlex on Monday December 10, 2018 @03:35PM (#18650983)
Nice, thanks!