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Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Saturday December 08, 2018 @06:53PM (#18638227)
I'm grappling with what to do about this law. I develop software in Australia, for a company, separately as a private software vendor and separately again as an open source contributor. From what I can understand, this law can compel me to silently insert malware into any of these. Morally I feel like I need to modify the licenses, READMEs and terms of conditions for products I sell and the contracts under which I do commercial work to clearly state that I may at any time include malware into the software I supply, if directed to by my government.

However unlikely, the idea that I could be commandeered at any moment to betray the users of my software and ship malware to them sickens me. But I also know that the reality of this happening is almost vanishingly small. I genuinely don't know what to do.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by nojvek on Saturday December 08, 2018 @07:02PM (#18638266)
> But I also know that the reality of this happening is almost vanishingly small.

Why do you think it’s vanishingly small?

You could somewhat trust the the current govt but you can’t trust the future. I’ve lived in Australia for a long time and the trend is clear. More surveillance is to come. Australia is very much a police state as it is.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Saturday December 08, 2018 @08:05PM (#18638575)
I think it's vanishingly small because my software is pretty niche and the chance that anyone who is a target actually uses it is tiny just by pure laws of numbers. And then even if that happens they are much more likely to identify a bigger company that they can leverage before hitting me as the best vector into that person's devices. There simply isn't much value in getting my software backdoored compared to Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.

But that doesn't help my on the other side of the equation where I need to sign contracts that directly prohibit things that I would be mandated to do under these laws (and do secretly). I will need to come up with some interesting boiler plate escape clauses that allow for it without sounding completely dodgy.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Saturday December 08, 2018 @10:14PM (#18639032)
I think the govt will attack smaller companies first, the ones who don't have the means to refuse.

They'd be stupid to start with giants like Apple or Google.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by ObsoleteNerd on Saturday December 08, 2018 @07:19PM (#18638336)
Maybe something like a warrant canary makes more sense? An encryption canary? Would that even pass with the new laws though?

Also you stating that you might have been forced to insert malware by the government surely breaks the rule that says you can't tell anyone too, if I'm understanding it correctly.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by int_19h on Saturday December 08, 2018 @08:01PM (#18638549)
Australia has a law that specifically bans warrant canaries.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/australian-gover...

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Saturday December 08, 2018 @07:53PM (#18638494)
I think me merely stating that I am subject to the laws of my country under which an individual can be compelled to ... etc. probably isn't illegal. It may be illegal if I modify that statement after being issued with an order and directed not to reveal the existence order.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by cyphar on Saturday December 08, 2018 @08:23PM (#18638653)
Warrant canaries aren't necessary (nor are they legal in Australia). The law allows you to provide aggregated statistics on how many requests you've received in a 6-month period.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Saturday December 08, 2018 @10:16PM (#18639036)
Yes but a single request can include an unlimited number of targets.

They can literally ask for all communications of every one of your users.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Saturday December 08, 2018 @10:43PM (#18639122)
It would be very hard for that to pass the proportionality test in the law. I know it's tempting to go for the worst case dystopian scenarios but it's actually important not to go overboard. Politicians and other people with a say immediately stop listening once they hear that. This law is extremely problematic even with a conservative interpretation, so I think we should stick with that.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Saturday December 08, 2018 @10:51PM (#18639152)
What proportionality test?

Lets go with how the law is actually written.

Say they decide hn is a den for hackers. I mean, it's right there in the name!

Hacking attracts a >3yr sentence - hence, we need the data of all hn users, they're all potential hackers!

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Saturday December 08, 2018 @11:01PM (#18639194)
The bill states:

The Director General of Security or the chief officer of an interception agency must not give a technical assistance notice to a designated communications provider unless the Director General of Security or the chief officer, as the case requires, is satisfied that:

    (a) the requirements imposed by the notice are reasonable and 
        proportionate; and
    (b) compliance with the notice is:
      (i) practicable; and
      (ii) technically feasible

So I don't believe intercepting en masse the communications of all the visitors to a web site purely based on its name would be seen as "reasonable and proportionate".
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:00PM (#18644844)
When thinking about such unprecedented powers, I prefer to consider the worst-case scenario of the laws as written, rather than what seems currently acceptable.

Because even if the current government is harmless, the next regime might not be, and these powers are basically the equivalent of a nuclear bomb with respect to privacy. They move the pendulum far away from what many would consider reasonable for a free society.

These laws just seem so rife with loopholes and ambiguities that even as an honest law-abiding citizen with nothing of interest to hide, I find them honestly terrifying.

If they're doing these things for legitimate reasons then there would be little reason to be against having reasonable limits to scope, reasonable oversight, accountability, as well as real reporting on the actual number of citizens whose data has been accessed.

The fact these concerns and all the consultation submissions from experts in both legal and technology issues have been ignored makes me strongly fear the whole law has not taken citizens right to privacy into account at all, and that is a terrifying proposition.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by zmmmmm on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:09PM (#18651922)
I agree with all of your sentiments, I just don't think that tactically this approach results in a useful outcome.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:33PM (#18652923)
In what way does downplaying the possible consequences help tactically?

I'm hoping that if more people realize the implications of this horrible law, there's more chance of the lobotomized public actually exerting some pressure on our supposed representatives to actually represent us.

It's unlikely given the media has been painfully silent on the horrible implications of this terrible law.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by rorykoehler on Sunday December 09, 2018 @01:33AM (#18639707)
Asking for a backdoor is never reasonable. This law is rife for abuse the way it's worded.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by jeeeeb on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:03AM (#18639417)
Just to add to this, it is also a requirement to give consideration to the privacy expectations of the Australian community and the legitimate interests of the communications provider.

However, there is no guidelines on how these judgements should be made and what is / isn't acceptable. Effectively it will be left to the courts to decide through legal disputes.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Sunday December 09, 2018 @07:44PM (#18644330)
I thought that decision was made by a "retired judge" and a "technology expert". Is that correct?
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by brokenmachine on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:32AM (#18647734)
The person requesting the spying is the one who decides if it's proportionate.

Yes, really.

Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by Nasrudith on Saturday December 08, 2018 @09:50PM (#18638944)
The simplest solution is probably a harder one practically - leave Australia. Sadly one doesn't simply leave their country and immigrate to someplace else in addition to any personal concerns - it might not be an option, let alone a desirable one but it has its merits.
Re:Australia’s vague anti-encryption law sets a dangerous ne... by cal5k on Saturday December 08, 2018 @11:12PM (#18639244)
Come to Canada :) We'll hire you.