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Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by purplethinking on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:24AM (#18617767)
I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication?

By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by mc32 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#18617873)
It’s odd because they pick and choose which “violence” is right and wrong. When Arab spring (in the end a very destabilizing movement) was facilitated by FB and Twitter it was great. When it facilitates caravan protests it’s great. When it facilitates anti-tax movements that threaten viability of an unpopular (vis a vis locals) but popular internationally (ie elites) then it’s seen as facilitating “bad” protests. Obviously media like to pick their narrative and winners and losers, deserving of freedom and those who don’t rather than let the masses decide for themselves.

That’s manipulation by traditional media upset their worldview and power to project it is slipping away from them.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by duality on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:48AM (#18617982)
This may be my reading only, but "populist" seeems to carry a negative connotation. I wonder, what is the opposite of populist? Is it "elitist?"
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by _jgdh on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:53AM (#18618017)
If you agree with decision taken by the majority then it's "democratic". If you disagree, it's "populist".

I'm from India where we have a similar term in the political lexicon - "vote-bank politics". It's means a policy that a plurality of voters (the "bank") like and want, but you don't. If you're within the vote bank, then it's no longer vote-bank politics, it's democracy in action.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by danharaj on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:52AM (#18618015)
The bad kind of populism is when an elite says they speak for the masses without actually consulting them. The public at large in such populism is a passive entity. The masses become a strawman used to pretend a majority support the autocrat's actions even if you cant find any particular person who does.

The sort of "populism" without a leader discussed in this article is nothing like that. But there are political powers that wish to ignore that a lot of people can be legitimately angry at the same time.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ulrikrasmussen on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:00AM (#18618061)
Media has always been biased like that, because they report the news relative to the established opinion at the time and place where they are published. It is easy in hindsight to pick examples that paints a picture of manipulation.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by beasteurope on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:46AM (#18617957)
This also extends to which incidents of police violence are approved and covered or not. If circumstances were different we might see cries of authoritarianism and calls for regime change!
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by mc32 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:51AM (#18618008)
Exactly, they'd be decrying the use of “chemicals weapons” by police (i.e. tear gas/pepper spray) and ask if it violates treaties against its use on civilians, etc. It’s all so blatantly political and partisan by a group which sets itself up as paragon of impartiality, truth, etc., but it’s all about world view, power and exerting that power to project that world view.

Now of course editorials and editorializing _is_ understandably different but unfortunately that wall has been completely breached and demolished.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by matt4077 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:38AM (#18618342)
Who is “they”? Your little anti-media ciclejerk here seems to target “the media”. But you can’t all be so dense as to not notice that this is just some guy on medium.com, right?
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by dang on Thursday December 06, 2018 @05:06PM (#18622793)
Please omit name-calling from your HN comments, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by beasteurope on Thursday December 06, 2018 @10:31AM (#18618786)
He's actually much worse than a media member, he's a professor of journalism.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by dao- on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:26AM (#18617780)
It's not just plain communication. Facebook controls what you see and their algorithms encourage rage because it gets users engaged.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by easytiger on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:30AM (#18617820)
It's monetisation of the little rush of chemicals your body injects when you feel outraged. Apparently its quite addictive!
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by dboreham on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#18617882)
See also: Fox News.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by beasteurope on Thursday December 06, 2018 @10:43AM (#18618939)
See also: Any international conglomerate that own a piece of the mainstream media apparatus.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by dsfyu404ed on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:49AM (#18617989)
Well if you're gonna go that route then you might as well toss in CNN, NBC, ABC, etc, etc.

CSPAN and arguably PBS are probably the only TV "news" networks that don't use every trick in the book to try and keep you watching so they can make more money by showing you more ads.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by EGreg on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:03AM (#18618082)
And the media does the same.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by XCabbage on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#18617860)
Hasn't the majority of the criticism of Facebook been about enabling communication? Indeed, hasn't that been the cause of most of the Left's pearl-clutching about social media's influence on politics over the last few years? Many, if not most, of the complaints about Russian "interference" in the US election and Brexit that I've seen the Left being so distressed about consisted primarily of Russians saying things about politics on Twitter.

Advocating for outright bans on voicing disfavoured viewpoints is so obviously illiberal and thuggish as to be politically unpopular, which is why it is always platforms targeted rather than individual speakers, and why there is always some rationalisation for the complaint other than the viewpoint being expressed (Russian bots! Fake news! Algorithms optimising for rage! Harassment!) but in the end the root cause of the complaint is always that someone said something that progressives didn't like.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by pjc50 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:47AM (#18617971)
No, a key part of this is misrepresentation: Russians saying things about politics as themselves would be one thing, but Russians pretending to be Americans en masse with thousands of fake accounts and promoting obviously false rumours and driven by audience-targeting ad technology starts to become a problem.

(This is not an argument against anonymity; I don't need to know where these accounts really live. I do need to know where political advertising is funded from, because there are laws about that.)

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by XCabbage on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:12AM (#18618146)
> Russians pretending to be Americans

While I don't claim to have researched this issue in depth and it's worth taking this with a pinch of salt, I'm yet to see any evidence of this, nor has it been a part of most of the leftist reporting I've seen. The only instance I've heard of where a specific Twitter account has been accused of being a Russian misrepresenting their nationality was ian56789, and that accusation was false, as he demonstrated by going on Sky News and giving an interview.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by pjc50 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:15AM (#18618173)
An example of the sort of thing I mean: https://www.ft.com/content/333fe6bc-c1ea-11e6-81c2-f57d90f67... (in this case Macedonians, not Russians, but where did the money come from?)
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by XCabbage on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:20AM (#18618206)
Paywalled.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by pjc50 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:41AM (#18618367)
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by gruez on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:58AM (#18618489)
What counts as "misrepresenting their nationality"? I'm sure russian bots aren't going around saying "I, John Smith, an American citizen, think that Hiliary is bad". It's probably going to be some user named @johnsmith2009 saying "Hilary is bad".
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ceejayoz on Thursday December 06, 2018 @11:26AM (#18619389)
If your name is Misha Ivanovich, you're working out of Moscow, and you've got an American flag avatar, post mostly about US politics, and go by the name @johnsmith2009 on Twitter, I'd say it's clear you're doing some deliberate misrepresentation.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by asianthrowaway on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:53AM (#18618019)
I'm still really unconvinced by this whole "Russians influenced the election" narrative. I doubt a few articles written in poor English about how Hillary runs pedophile sex rings would have had a greater influence on the electorate than Hillary being actively endorsed by nearly every respectable establishment media outlet.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by pjc50 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:06AM (#18618103)
People really wanted to hate Hillary, and to some extent this was because she was endorsed so heavily by the media. So they latched onto every little thing that could be used against her.

There's really two parts to the populist wave: "establishment politics isn't delivering what we need" and "we must turn to what seems like a Man of the People". The first has some extremely valid points, the second has (mostly) been a total disaster.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by snaky on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:50AM (#18618004)
> Hasn't the majority of the criticism of Facebook been about enabling communication?

Enabling horizontal communication, not controlled by the Mainstream Mass Media.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by skocznymroczny on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:48AM (#18617988)
It's ironic, because FB, Twitter are famous for censoring conservatives for years and promoting liberal worldviews. Suddenly they are the biggest enemy of liberals in the US.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by beginningguava on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:04AM (#18618088)
>unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history

that's what they want. The media and many government officials have been implying that the citizens are simply too stupid to be trusted with filtering their information so the glorious government must restrict what they're allowed to see. At what point will they decide the common man is simply too dumb to vote and get rid of democracy as well?

All this talk is demeaning and shows what our cultured elites really think about us, that we're a bunch of dumb cattle that need to be controlled

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by snaky on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:19AM (#18618195)
> the common man is simply too dumb to vote

This is foundation of American democracy actually. In the early history of the U.S., most states allowed only male adult property owners to vote (about 6% of the population).

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ceejayoz on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:27AM (#18618269)
And even then, there's an additional escape hatch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ulrikrasmussen on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:54AM (#18618026)
I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse that everyone might have hoped. Facebook just happens to be the largest platform offering that.

I don't think it is fair to consider large-scale censorship as the only other alternative. Having some kind of neutral editorial process to filter out the unsubstantiated, hateful opinions and leave room for a more nuanced discussion raises the level of discourse, and is the model that have been offered by traditional media for a long time.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by AlexB138 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:03AM (#18618083)
> I don't think it is fair to consider large-scale censorship as the only other alternative. Having some kind of neutral editorial process to filter out the unsubstantiated, hateful opinions and leave room for a more nuanced discussion raises the level of discourse, and is the model that have been offered by traditional media for a long time.

The problem with this view is that one person's hateful opinion is another person's oppressed minority opinion. There aren't many objective truths, moderators just end up enforcing their own world view (which we've already seen Facebook do).

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ulrikrasmussen on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:19AM (#18618201)
I did not claim that it was a perfect system, but it is better at avoiding devolving into the hateful rage-soup that unedited online forums often do. It is virtually impossible to have a system that is "perfectly balanced" (can we even define what that means?), so rejecting alternatives on those grounds is holding them to unrealistically high standards.
Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by krapp on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:24AM (#18618243)
To be fair, 'unedited internet communication in general' shouldn't be expected to improve public discourse any more than telephone calls or emails or any other form of uncensored expression.

If the internet is meant to be a platform on which people can express themselves freely (and I believe it is) then unsubstantiated and hateful opinions are a given, not a sign that the internet has failed, but that it's succeeded.

What failed is the naive, idealist expectation that the internet would raise the level of intellectual and cultural awareness of the planet, but I don't think many people really believed in that to begin with.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by snaky on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:05AM (#18618092)
> I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse

It depends on how exactly you define 'improvement'. Millions of people, speaking freely to each other, finding new friends sharing common interests would disagree with you.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by ulrikrasmussen on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:31AM (#18618295)
It is not universally bad, of course. The question is if the bad consequences outweigh the good ones.

The improvement I was talking about was the hope that the increased access to online communication would engage more people in constructive public discourse, include the voices of minorities and bring people with different backgrounds to a greater understanding of each other. Platforms like Facebook have utterly failed at that.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by AlexB138 on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:57AM (#18618045)
I'm with you. I haven't used Facebook for years because I think it's unhealthy and disagree with their business practices. I believe that that is the correct response when you have a problem with a service that isn't necessary.

I'm of the view point that censorship is exactly the point of articles like this. They want Facebook to enforce a very bias view of what is acceptable speech, and intentionally conflate being a communication platform with being responsible for the outcomes of that communication.

Re:How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage by snaky on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:48AM (#18617979)
Yes.

How The Paper And Writing Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

How The Ability To Speak Is Fueling the French Populist Rage