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Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @09:59AM (#18608707)
I only use firefox. But I don't feel like I can strongly recommend it because of the long list of bad decisions.

- Google analytics baked into about:addons

- Sending data to Cliqz

- Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar

- Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page

- Firefox hello

- Completely banning unsigned addons

- Mr. Robot advert

- And now probably this

I want a browser that is reliable, high quality, respects my privacy, and nothing else. I don't want addons baked into it. I don't want to be spied on.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by dingaling on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @05:22PM (#18613279)
Today I received promotional e-mails from Mozilla to my Firefox Account address. That really annoyed me, dipping into a privacy-sensitive database just to send marketing spam. How can marketing people even get access to that DB?

No Mozilla, I don't want to watch your seasonal streaming music concerts. I want you to get on with building a better browser and stop undermining my trust. Sadly the top management think they're running a social experiment.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by Maskawanian on Thursday December 06, 2018 @08:33AM (#18617844)
I agree, I was pretty pissed when I received this. I really want to support firefox, I really do...
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by nmy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:20AM (#18608947)
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These are minor things compared to having no other good choice but the Google browser.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by jammygit on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @07:46PM (#18614316)
I suppose someone should mention Brave is an alright choice. If it had mobile sync working, I might be using it (Firefox currently)

Edit: just checked and their android version doesn't seem to have implemented password manager support yet. I'm excited for when they do, but its disappointing.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by tapoxi on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:28PM (#18610999)
Are we supposed to pretend that options like ungoogled-chromium don't exist?
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by nmy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @03:20PM (#18612105)
Once there is no more competition Google can change how it open sources a project. Look at Android.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by craftyguy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:04PM (#18610138)
I've never found the "choose this, because the other option(s) suck more" to be a particularly flattering argument for web browsers, programming languages, cars, or politicians.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by kibwen on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:12PM (#18610840)
The modern aversion to "lesser of two evils" is a thinly-disguised post-hoc rationalization for apathy (or worse, nihilism). It's not even false equivalence, because that would suggest trying to paint both "evils" as equal; no, this is simply saying that, when presented with two choices where one is better than the other, we might as well make the worse choice, because who cares?
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:46PM (#18611169)
Disagreed.

You should personally should choose the lesser of two evils when those are your only choices. Promoting the lesser evil is not such an easy call though.

From a practical standpoint, promoting an evil, even if it's a lesser evil, has the potential for harming your own reputation as a reliable source.

It is also fundamentally morally questionable, of course what is morally right and wrong is a matter of much debate. Suppose a psycopath calls you up and says "I'm going to do one of two things, shoot a random 5 year old named Joseph, or shoot two random 5 year olds named Kate, which should I do?". Assume for the hypothetical that you know they are telling the truth, and there is nothing you can do about the situation but choosing what you say back. In my view of the world saying "shoot Joseph" still makes you morally culpable, even though you were avoiding a worse situation.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by craftyguy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:33PM (#18611658)
Alternatively, you can lobby for a different choice, or pressure the 'lesser evil' to improve themselves. Rarely do folks bother to do this though after they've made their choice.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by SahAssar on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:15PM (#18610256)
It's not supposed to be flattering. It's just saying it's the least bad option.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by Digital-Citizen on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @08:03PM (#18614451)
> I want a browser that is reliable, high quality, respects my privacy, and nothing else. I don't want addons baked into it. I don't want to be spied on.

I recommend that you look into what you're getting with software freedom -- the single most important aspect that makes Firefox different from Google Chrome, Microsoft's web browsers, Opera, or Apple Safari. All of the items on your list can be changed by using your software freedom. And this doesn't have to involve you learning to program (though that wouldn't be a bad idea). It could involve you asking programmers nicely to help you out, or hiring programmers to improve Firefox to be what you think it should be, or getting funds together with others who share your views to collectively fund programmers who work on your shared goals.

As it stands your desire reads selfishly because it is indistinguishable from you saying that you want programmers to develop a free software (free as in freedom to run, inspect, share, and modify) web browser you trust without you doing anything to help vet its trustworthiness or modify the software until it becomes software you trust. We don't have to settle for doing nothing; software freedom lets us have as much control over free software as we wish to have. The limits are on us to make things better.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @09:00PM (#18614733)
I know how to program. I've contributed to Mozilla projects. Including minor contributions to components of Firefox.

I do not have the time or the money to personally develop a secure web browser for the rest of the world, nor does any other individual. Your demand is unreasonable.

Moreover, I'm not demanding that Mozilla do something. I'm explaining what would have to change for me to be able to promote Firefox and contribute to reversing the declining market share. Short of not breaking the law I make no claims that Mozilla must do anything.

PS. Chromium is also free software. The difference is how Mozilla develops it's free software.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by Digital-Citizen on Friday December 07, 2018 @11:14PM (#18633886)
> I do not have the time or the money to personally develop a secure web browser for the rest of the world, nor does any other individual. Your demand is unreasonable.

Apparently some people do, that's why we have Firefox derivatives like the Tor browser and GNUZilla, among others. Also, I made a recommendation not a demand. I continue to recommend that you consider what software freedom grants you in light of what you say you want other programmers to do for you.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by octosphere on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:24PM (#18610965)
You missed a few things:

- They have telemetry turned as the default

- They are experimenting with TLS over HTTPS and use beloved Cloudflare to handle every DNS request

- They are always in the headlines about some shady 'addon' or 'extension' been sold off and taken over by shady actors

- The TorBundle which is a fork of FF ESR is always in the headlines as been unsecure and way behind FF mainline release

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:33PM (#18611040)
Yes, I'm sure I missed some things, I was trying to keep the list as non controversial as possible. Here are some specific responses.

1. Agreed, but at least they do prompt fairly early letting you turn it off.

2. I'm only looking at things in the release version of firefox. As I note elsewhere they treat nightly/beta users much worse. Longterm TLS over HTTPS is great for privacy, and they had to choose some provider, so I'm mostly fine with this.

3. This isn't their fault, the same applies to chrome. An extension is a third party piece of software you choose to install.

4. Again, a third party piece of software, not under their control. Further they are actively working to improve this situation and bring Tor onto mainline firefox!

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by octosphere on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @03:44PM (#18612339)
> TLS over HTTPS

Sorry I meant DNS over HTTPS

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @03:53PM (#18612429)
lol, so did I :)
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by jammygit on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @07:54PM (#18614393)
Could you elaborate about the tor browser?
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by octosphere on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:22AM (#18618226)
> Could you elaborate about the tor browser?

Currently Tor is behind mainline Firefox in terms of security because it's a fork of Firefox ESR[1]. Pay attention to this part[2]:

> Unlike other release channels, ESRs are not updated with new features every six weeks. They are instead supported for more than a year, updating with major security or stability fixes.

[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/

[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Fir...

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by zaarn on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:18AM (#18608927)
Well, unsigned addons are banned in the branded release browser. If you use the developer edition, nightly or compile Firefox yourself then you can install unsigned addons into Firefox. The last option also enables you to turn of Pocket and a variety of other services.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:33AM (#18609108)
Does anyone maintain a branch with precompiled builds that has sideloading turned on + no Pocket / other services? Preferably with autoupdate still working?

Firefox is my primary browser on Windows, and I'd love to have this stuff removed, but I'm really not at a point where I can be compiling the code myself.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by craftyguy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:06PM (#18610156)
Icecat[0] might be the closest thing to what you are looking for. It's part of the GNU project.

0. https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:14PM (#18610240)
No binary releases for Windows. :(
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by raw_creations on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:42PM (#18615478)
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by notamerican on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:03PM (#18611345)
That's exactly how it should be! The developer version isn't behind any barriers - it's trivially easy to find and install - and it keep the majority of people from installing some of the most malicious extensions.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:42AM (#18609219)
I use to use nightly, then I found out they spy on you a lot more if you use nightly. I suspect the same applies to developer edition.

[0] https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/FirefoxNoNightl...

[1] https://lobste.rs/s/ri4kny/you_probably_don_t_want_run_firef...

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by kibwen on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:15PM (#18610872)
When you first open a new Nightly install there's literally a banner across the entire browser telling you that it's collecting metrics, along with a button that displays more information and allows you to customize what data gets sent. The whole point of offering a Nightly build is so that they can have feedback on performance regressions and crashes. Characterizing it as "spying" is simply FUD.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:49PM (#18611191)
And the event I'm linking to is a scenario where Mozilla updated nightly with no warning to share more data without telling me, against the policy stated about the setting in the browser. And a response by a Mozilla engineer saying that they thought this was perfectly acceptable behavior.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by heroprotagonist on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:42PM (#18611129)
I would add:

- Public search for sources of other people's breached personal data via monitor.firefox.com (eg, you can enter anyone's email and see results, and not just your own, as there's no verification that you own the email until you sign up for continuous alerting)

That said, I love Firefox itself and think Mozilla usually try to do the right thing. Someone just lost the security vs usability debate there I guess.

Apparently informing people who won't check their email for a link but will enter their email into a form trumps protecting people who don't know the site exists from stalkers and other malicious actors.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by notamerican on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:00PM (#18611314)
> Public search for sources of other people's breached personal data via monitor.firefox.com

That page is powered by haveibeenpwned.com. Mozilla just made a fantastic security tool available to user who don't know about Troy's site.

> you can enter anyone's email and see results

This data is all very easily available online anyway. It's just aggregating leaks that already public, and neither HIBP or the Mozilla page provide the _actual_ personal info that was leaked.

> Someone just lost the security vs usability debate there I guess.

That's the thing though; this _is_ a valid security tool. And a powerful and valuable one at that. HIBP has been used for years by thousands of users to secure their accounts after data breaches.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by heroprotagonist on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @04:59PM (#18613058)
In other words, they have publicized the existing tool to make it available to a broader audience without adding anything on top to improve its security. They're both in the wrong on this.

The argument of "Others are being irresponsible, so we should be irresponsible as well" does not stand up very well.

The only valid use case for providing this information is for when a user no longer has access to the email address in question.

In this case, they should still require it to be sent via email, and they should still send a notification to the email address being requested which includes details about the request like the IP it is made from and the email it would forward to, perhaps with a delay-and-prevent option so that someone who still owns the email can prevent the exfiltration by responding to the notice quickly.

Otherwise, this enables anyone to solicit unauthorized PII data about basically anyone else from Mozilla.

Even HIBP somewhat acknowledge the potential damage this can do, from the way they censor some results like the Ashley Madison data breach. They've made the decision that some personal information linked to a person's email address is more worthy of protection than other bits of personal information, which really shouldn't be up to them.

They get away with it because of weak data protection laws and the fact that this caters to individual users who are more likely to opt themselves out if they become aware of it than to file a lawsuit or otherwise apply pressure to make them change.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by pritambaral on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:32PM (#18611638)
Isn't that just what haveibeenpwned does? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if monitor.firefox were using hibp internally.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by heroprotagonist on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @05:01PM (#18613077)
Yes, it's the same, FF Monitor calls HIBP on the backend. Firefox Monitor is basically branding, to get the information out to more users (and more stalkers) because they are more recognizable.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by barrowclift on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @03:55PM (#18612445)
If you use macOS, Safari since Mountain Lion has consistently hit all three of those checkboxes for me, you might want to consider giving it a shot.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by mtgx on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:09AM (#18608816)
> Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar

> Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page

Is that really worse than Mozilla allowing all of your Google searches (from the new tabs) to go through Google? At least it owns Pocket.

Mozilla needs to make money somehow. Promoting its own services doesn't seem nearly as bad as the partnership with Google, in my opinion.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by falcolas on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:32AM (#18609084)
It's a fairly straightforward configuration change in the primary configuration screen to switch search providers. It's an advanced about:config change (when even possible) to change those others.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by yarrel on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:43PM (#18610529)
Pocket wasn't Mozilla's own service when they added it.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by PurpleRamen on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:05AM (#18608785)
Maybe we need a light fork which removes all those problematic parts on each release?
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by markstos on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:09AM (#18608817)
Some of this problematic points are historical and resolved, like the Mr. Robot advert.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by PurpleRamen on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:52AM (#18609327)
Maybe with a user-orientated fork the ability which allowed the Mr. Robot-thing would be gone too. As I remember it's a sketchy part which is not neccessary for the basic functionality.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by btgis on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:39AM (#18609173)
The fact that there are so many points just means we all have to sit and wait to see what the Mozilla Corporation does next. It does not matter if they resolve every grave transgression they do, I already have 0 trust placed on them.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by boomboomsubban on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:12PM (#18610841)
GNU IceCat, or presumably most of these things are compile options.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by nykolasz on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:01AM (#18608738)
Agree. Isn't that why we have extensions for?
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by btgis on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:42AM (#18609214)
>- Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page

Firefox now shows you ads on your home page by default. It's diabolical.

I trust a well-configured Chrome (and with that I mean using the options dialog, not the cryptic about:config) more than Firefox. Even after having a well configured about:config, they managed to remotely install the Mr. Robot advertisement addon on my computer. I freaked out when I saw it.

The Mozilla Corporation would do very well with a big change of leadership.

Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by levosmetalo on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:19AM (#18608933)
In that case you would be better served by Google Chrome. I bet it doesn't have Pocket and Firefox hello.
Re:Firefox partners with ProtonVPN by gpm on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:20PM (#18610299)
Google chrome has it's own set of problems that I think are worse. Namely giving Google the ability to make services that only work on its browser (which Google has been doing).

The unfortunate part of this is that how much weight you assign to the twos actions is subjective, so I can't tell other people "you should definitely be using firefox instead" in good faith.