I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it matters, they all have iPhones inexplicably. It's just a viscous self-feeding cycle and I don't know how to help them break out of it.
Also, cigarettes are an appetite suppressant and in many places are cheaper than food. Food stamps are hardly comprehensive. Cheaper, that is, until it all catches up to you medically.
One thing I've learned in my years is how much cheaper life is when you make good money. I can buy healthy food. I can go to the doctor. I can buy shoes and jeans that last. I can properly fix things right when they break. And so on and so on. I pay more upfront to save a ton down the line.
It's inexplicable when there are alternative phones available for 1/10 the cost. Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40?
> And so on and so on. I pay more upfront to save a ton down the line.
But my example is that I'm paying less upfront than my neighbors. They are the ones buying iPhones and name brand cereal with SNAP while I'm over here using cheap phones and eating generic brand cereal. It just seems paradoxical is all I'm saying.
What if their lives are not very happy, but this one thing makes them happy? Is it worth it then? I would argue yes.
This reminds me of that infamous Fox News talking point: "Look at these people, living in poverty, and yet they still have microwaves in their kitchen! Maybe if they weren't living beyond their means, they wouldn't be in the slums!"
I bet that they'd be happier with a crappier phone when they lose their job and have enough savings to ride out looking for a new one. In fact, they'd probably find a better paying job if they didn't have to take the first one they could land.
The problem with poverty is that many think "that's how life is" and don't realize that they can get out of the cycle. If people in poverty saved just $20 per week, they'd have $1000 in one year, which is nearly a month's pay at minimum wage. $20 per week is likely the amount they spend on "luxury" items, like fast food and a fancy phone bill. In fact, the average cell phone bill for an individual is ~$70, or around $1k per year, and nearly half spend over $100[1]. Having a month's pay in cash means you have that much longer to find a new job, and can withstand emergencies like a broken car that often result in taking on payday loans or the like.
Yes, they probably think that their fancy phone makes them happy, but I think it's quite the opposite because it's increasing the frequency of financial stressors.
The happiest people aren't the ones with the most stuff, but the ones with the most financial stability.
- [1] http://business.time.com/2012/10/18/47-a-month-why-youre-pro...
McDouble is 'cheapest and most nutritious food in human history'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/10210327/McDouble-i...
That's ~1500 calories/ day for the year buying gas station pizza. It's hard to work when you're hungry.
That's electricity or heat and water for most of a year.
That's a beater to get through a winter.
That's a couple visits to urgent care.
That's cell phone and internet payments for a year.
That's half a deposit on an average apartment.
That's winter tires and months of gas.
How can someone who is unable to think rationally (because they're poor and are at the mercy of capitalists) to keep them homelessness? The reality is terrifying and anyone who can muddle through it without resorting to crime, drug addiction, or being institutionalized is a person of immense strength of mind and character. Arguably stronger and more resourceful people than the multi generational families of inheritance.
What good could $1000 really do for someone?
$1000 to me is insignificant and yet more than half a month's rent. In order to escape this poverty trap I'd need a lot more money, money I'll never have.
Even if I saved as aggressively as possible making sacrifices like eating only the cheapest foods available, buying only second hand clothing, cutting my own hair, biking an hour instead of the 10 minute drive to work, I'd only be able to save $400/mo. An extra $5k/yr at a loss of over half my free time and nearly every empty pleasure in life affords me the ability to what? Spend 8 years getting an outdated associates degree at a community college? I have several friends who did that, currently making more than them with only a HS diploma, yet still dead broke, paycheck to paycheck. Oooh. Maybe 16 years for a bachelor's degree. I'm sure I'll be a desirable applicant in my forties or fifties with entry level skills.
The point is, poor people can't save their way out of poverty like they can't work their way to ceo unless they're actively groomed for better positions. The vast majority of companies are actively removing progression tracked positions and automating the higher skilled positions to further rely on low wage low skill workers that get stuck there. This is a travesty and left unchecked will further the social collapse of this country. You really should get out of your social bubble and interact with middle aged people working minimum wage jobs. You'll find a lot of unlucky but otherwise hard working, honest, reliable, and compassionate people, as well the occasional jerk. Try to get to know the jerk and find out why they're abrasive. Chances are they've had a hard life and their efforts failed to pay off in meaningful ways. Sure some might be truly awful despite having been given every advantage, but those are few and far between.
The difference between a cheap Android and an old iPhone isn't going to be enough to buy a home, or provide food for the family every day, or pay for (or off) an education, or pay for medical expenses, or buy a reliable car, or any of the other truly expensive things that those with wealth take for granted.
Judging the spending habits of the poor on small luxuries is a common way we shift the blame of poverty onto the poor. It allows the rich to feel better about themselves and about the society they've built.
In order to escape poverty, at some point you need to stop thinking and acting like a poor person and start thinking and acting like a middle class person. When and how do you propose that happens? Frugal middle class don't smoke and drink their money away, nor buy top shelf electronics and food products if money is tight. They cut coupons, buy off-brand, save, and invest. At some point, poor people need to be somehow taught these things that we intrinsically know.
Poor people need money, but they need (perhaps even more) education and role models to emulate which is something the government can't easily provide.
It's probably the oldest and most difficult problem to solve in the history of humanity because it requires a large amount of people to be empathetic and charitable with not just their money, but their time.
For some people, whose larger problems are likely unresolvable, small bright spots are the only thing making life somewhat worthwhile.
Not if their phone is their only computing device.
name brand cereal
Sometimes when you're struggling, affording yourself some basic pleasures keeps you from giving up entirely.
I've used $40 Android phones, and they're barely usable with modern apps.
Once the battery starts to degrade, which happens quickly, performance drops from barely usable to intermittently usable, with frequent freezing and reboots.
Looking at Sprint.com, iPhones are available for $18 a month.
Do you own a laptop or a workstation?
On the other hand my “luxurious” iPhone 6s I bought in 2015, is still going strong, getting updates, and speed wise, is still faster than most modern Android phones.
You can also be given an iPhone as a gift or hand-me-down. Or decide to keep it instead of selling it when you lose your job or get really sick the rest of your life goes off the rails.
The parent comment presumes knowing about these people, what they need, what they should do, and that it's your business to change them. That's a lot of judgment and on very little information.
I also am not a fan of the idea that people in poverty should spend no money on pleasures, that they must live as aesthetes their whole lives - almost as a sort of penance or to prove their dedication. These are people's lives; I hope they enjoy them and I'm certainly not the one to judge them for it.
If you are part of any professional membership or subscription to get you through life, then there are some similarities
The point being that maybe they overspend on conspicuous consumption, using an iphone alone isnt an indicator in isolation. Who knows where the price limit is, but low interest low velocity on phone payments with easy upgrades makes this practical
That's pretty hard to believe.
Seems pretty not-valuable to me.
In fact, I think this is a fantastic reason to avoid iPhones. I'm super excited about the Librem 5[1], and I'll be extra happy to be even that less desirable to these types of people.
A $500 phone gets used as an example because it's something people here will buy somewhat often and without much thought but it's missing the point to argue that there are cheaper phones.
A common thing that I notice with poor people is that they buy bad cars. 15 year old American sedans. That kind of crap. When you can buy a Japanese sedan, use it for 5 years, spend almost nothing on maintenance, and then sell it for most of what you paid for it.
My phone cost me $250 (Moto x4) and it's an improvement on my previous $400+ phone (Nexus 6). I could buy a new one nearly every year for the price of making payments on an iPhone.
But people see a top-of-the-line product at a monthly cost they can afford and jump on it, not realizing that they could buy a cheaper option and get much more financial stability, and thus much less stress.
And yes, it's not just phones, but to me it's a symbol of the other decisions you make it life. Nearly everyone I know who complains when payroll is a day or two later than expected has a way nicer phone than me, drives a nicer car, and eats out a ton. I, on the other hand, have a house I can afford, am well above average on retirement, and have enough cash in the bank to survive without a job for several months without touching my investments.
If people realized that they could be out of debt in just a couple years of living more frugally, I'm sure they'd do it. But people just assume they'll be stuck, so they don't even try and spend everything in luxuries now.
The iPhone 7 is $449 and seeing that the 5s from 2013 which is three years older is still supported, worse case you would probably still get three years worth of updates for the 7.
The problem with pay-as-you-go is the interest rates, penalties, fees, etc.
When AT&T or Apple sells me a phone with a monthly payment, I take it because it’s literally the price divided by 24 payments. Zero percent interest. No brainer.
Better debt servicing and better risk assessment and higher trust in buyers would bring down default rates and decrease APY making these programs reasonable and proper. At the extortionate rates necessary due to the extreme default rates and difficulty in collecting payments, they are terrible.
Everyone wants a smart phone, a large television, a game console and a bunch of other junk. But what you want is not necessarily what you can afford.
Now I am not necessarily disagreeing with your point. There are legitimate life needs that people cannot afford (e.g. the tires and car you cited), but nobody needs a $500-$1000 smart phone. Nobody needs a top of the line television, computer, internet connection or subscriptions to all the fancy on-demand media services... and yet by and large American's want these things.
Edit: Thanks for the downvote, stranger. Care to explain?
My sense is that people push their financial situation to the limit in order to get more stuff faster. You might say "if they had more money it wouldn't be an issue" but my feeling is that, for most of these people, if they had 20% more money, they'd just find the new limit. I don't necessarily fault this behavior, if the things you're buying make you happy then maybe it's perfectly rational.
But if that's true, it seems nonsensical to define poverty as "precariousness of one's finacial situation". The only definition of poverty that makes sense to me is the material one.
If you can't afford a 1000 dollar phone, then taking a loan out to buy one is completely illogical. It's a depreciating asset with diminishing returns - a 200 dollar phone does basically all the same things.
The issue is that loans have a psychological effect on some individuals which makes them more like to spend more than they would otherwise. They end up in a sort of situation where wealth doesn't exist at all and all future income is accounted for already.
Then you overpaid for your car.
I know my older son doesn’t have cable or home internet and he uses his phone for everything including entertainment, internet connectivity to his computer, etc.
I’ve known families with children who were going through things and the kids studied on a hand me down laptop and use their phone’s internet access and tethering to do homework.
How long will your $200 phone get updates? How long will it be fast enough to run the latest apps?
If you bought a 32GB 5s in 2015 for $499, you would still be getting updates and it is still as fast as most midrange Android phones. I bought a 64GB iPhone 6s in 2015 for $749 and just recently gave it to my son. It is still going strong, and if history is any guide, it should still get updates for at least another 2 years. It’s also faster in single core performance than any but the highest end Android phones.
https://bgr.com/2015/09/10/iphone-6s-iphone-6-iphone-5s-pric...
If you happen to live in a city. If you live outside a big metro area, at least in the US, a car absolutely is a necessity.
Where I live, there are no buses, no cabs, no uber, nothing. I don't have children or need to haul large loads frequently, so I might be able to make it work, but it would be a HUGE quality of life hit, necessitating taking a different job nearer me which almost certainly wouldn't pay as well as what I make now, moving closer to work - if I can find anything that's nearby and reasonably priced - and/or spending large amounts of time walking/biking. If I did have children or other dependents, there's just no real way I could expect to not have a car.
It is an absolute necessity for me to have a car and all the costs that entails. I'd rather give up my cell phone than the car.