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Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by david_shaw on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:43PM (#18545276)
> I put years of effort into learning Shaolin kung fu and understanding its culture, but no, I was definitely not waking up at 4:30 AM in the barracks each morning for a jog up the mountain.

Really? The author learned Chinese, studied kung fu for years, then traveled to China to train -- only to decide that getting up early was simply too much effort?

I found this article informative (if someone erratic), but this part truly baffled me. Still, it's very interesting that a fifth century temple is still operating -- and making money! -- today.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by girzel on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:13PM (#18546230)
The writing is a little ambiguous, but I read that more as saying that, as a foreigner, he simply wasn't part of the "real monks'" training regimen. He doesn't say if he tried to get in and wasn't welcome, or preferred to stay on the tourist side of things, but I didn't interpret it as saying that _because_ of the early wakeup times, he wasn't doing the real training.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by dssu on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:55PM (#18546592)
Waking up early is just the beginning. There are also heavy chore responsibilities, 10+ hr full day of training, frequent beatings.

And the physical disciplinary punishments are brutal.

Oh and you have to keep this up for 5-10 years. Very reasonable to see why someone would not want to commit to this.

Many of the warrior monks were trained as very young children so they had not much say in the situation and just had to deal with it.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by hangonhn on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:18PM (#18546866)
The literal translation of "kung fu" means skill through effort. In fact in some parts of China, the words "kung fu" is used to mean skill in general. To say a practitioner of some art has "no kung fu" means he or she is lacking in practice/skill. The more correct term for Chinese martial arts is "wu shu" -- "military/martial" and "art".

This idea of skill through practice is one of those values that I am very grateful for because it was sort of drilled into my head at an early age and has been enormous beneficial to me throughout my life. It's become more valuable now that I'm older and don't absorb new information as quickly or easily.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by kinleyd on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @02:36AM (#18549877)
Thanks. "Skill through effort" is wonderfully worded - a perfect value to pass on to the young ones.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by scythe on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:19PM (#18546875)
Tõzan came to study with Unmon. Unmon asked, "Where are you from?"

"From Sato," Tõzan replied.

"Where were you during the summer?"

"Well, I was at the monastery of Hõzu, south of the lake."

"When did you leave there," Unmon asked.

"On August 25" was Tõzan's reply.

"I spare you sixty blows," Unmon said.

The next day Tõzan came to Unmon and said, "Yesterday you said you spared me sixty blows.

I beg to ask you, where was I at fault?"

"Oh, you rice bag!" shouted Unmon. "What makes you wander about, now west of the river, now south of the lake?"

Tõzan thereupon came to a mighty enlightenment experience.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by diegoperini on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:20PM (#18547397)
Can someone explain?
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by ashrk on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:35PM (#18547504)
Pretty sure it's from The Gateless Gate (I recognize it, which means it's probably from there).

Zen tales tend to present a couple major challenges to the reader:

1) Going into them cold isn't exactly intended. The characters are usually named for a reason, and it's expected that the reader/hearer will already know some things about the historical persons in the story, possibly some other tales about them, from reading histories and lineages, and so on, providing more context than is apparent at first if you take the stories per se.

2) There's often at least one relatively easy-to-pick-out though rarely explicitly stated lesson in them, but also one or more metaphorical or allegorical readings, at least one of which will be a "canonical" reading, i.e. your teacher will expect you to come up with it after some consideration before moving on to the next koan/tale—they don't expect that every student, or even many, will come up with a totally new and valuable metaphorical/obscure insight to the koans they present them, as that's just not realistic and no-one would ever advance if that were the expectation.

An easy example of 2 is (from memory so this wording will suck compared to the real thing) the "what should I do now?" "have you eaten your rice" "yes" "then clean out your bowl" one from (IIRC) Gateless Gate—simple surface reading of first-things-first and the importance of routine-following, but one available deeper reading of this as a Zen "challenge" (many of the koans/tales are) where the question "have you eaten your rice?" is actually asking, as understood by both characters, "have you attained enlightenment?" or similar, and "then clean out your bowl" has to do with banishing hubris or something along those lines.

Point 2 especially fairly speculative and arrived at purely second hand—I've not practiced Zen Buddhism—though I'm confident enough in it to present it here. Take that for whatever it's worth.

[EDIT] further, the point of their contemplation is in taking the journey to the answers, in part for the value of the journey and (one supposes) in part to train in the kind of lateral thinking that's so vital to these "zen battles". So just having a list of "answers" alongside the text kind of defeats the purpose, though they're definitely not intended to be as obscure and hard to follow as they are if you go into them with no background on (basically) Buddhist historical trivia.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by xelxebar on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:37PM (#18549107)
Funnily enough, I have a copy of 無門関 sitting right in front of me. Pretty sure it's case 15.

I'd add that a lot of the stories are challenges in the sense of asking "What kind of mind must the characters have to give these kinds of answers?" There's usually a sense in which the interaction feels most natural.

In a way they are like inside jokes. Once you get it, there's little question about the meaning, and usually there's no need for any philosophical sophistication. In my experience, a good bit of The Gateless Gate is uncouth humor.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by diegoperini on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:03PM (#18547700)
Thanks for taking the time!
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by lnanek2 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:28PM (#18547455)
Sounds like his new master was criticizing him for not sticking with his training, and instead going around searching for a new master.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by chimprich on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:35PM (#18547909)
My un-Zen-trained take on it is that Tõzan represents you/me/the student. The teacher stays punishment because the student has not actually done anything wrong, but the threat of punishment is mentioned in the abstract in order to concentrate the student's mind.

The teacher then gets angry because the student tries too hard to understand by questioning the teacher rather than trying to work out their own answer or accepting the state of things.

The correct "answer" to the question then (so far as there is one) is to place yourself in the story and either accept it as it is, or come up with an interpretation of the story (like this).

The wrong answer is to ask what the answer is.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by diegoperini on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:48PM (#18548307)
> The wrong answer is to ask what the answer is.

Then I definitely lost this one myself.

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by mikekchar on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:09PM (#18549230)
Asking to explain the question is different from asking to explain the answer. Because you asked your question, I could go back and think about why the OP posted that particular story. Thank you.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by chimprich on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @07:33PM (#18557106)
Only if my interpretation is correct and if you consider your comment a request for an answer :)
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by coldtea on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:32PM (#18547030)
So basically the Navy SEALS is where people go if they can't stand this regime?
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by nabla9 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:11PM (#18546799)
Especially when "kung fu" literally means something like "skill from effort" (as opposite of magic, praying, good genes etc). Kung = skillful work or hard training, Fu = time spent. It's mean pushing yourself to improve.

If we can trust Wikipedia:

> In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by hangonhn on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:19PM (#18546883)
I can verify that as the correct translation and people in fact do use "kung fu" to mean a skill or an art you achieve through practice. In the part of China where my family is from, people do say "have no kung fu" to mean some practitioner is bad at what he or she does.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by bfung on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:19PM (#18549258)
Another common usage is like with cooks - they're cooking, say, some dish with a wok start tossing it - it's good "cooking" kung fu.

ex: https://youtu.be/yKvTC_N23gs?t=23

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by avip on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:28PM (#18547449)
I read it as he was not invited. Some shrines in Asia have an "open zone", where people can hang out, take photos, etc. Then there's an inner zone for real devotees who live there, which the others cannot enter (not saying this is the case with Shaulin but it well could be).
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by com2kid on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:18PM (#18545682)
Especially considering that early morning workouts are not all that uncommon in the hardcore American fitness community...

Heck lots of celebrities get up at that time to do physical training for conditioning for movie roles.

I also want to know the material of that glass and needle...

NM, yt vid of an American magician doing it.

https://youtu.be/F7268AaP9Ok?t=98

Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by mikestew on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:32PM (#18545860)
Kind of my first thought, and why it seemed out of character with the rest. Because it isn't uncommon for me to get up an hour later at 5:30 to go for a run, and I'm friggin' lazy. Learn a new language and travel to a foreign country? Hell, yeah, I'll go to bed an hour earlier for that morning run.
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by irrational on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:56PM (#18547218)
I saw a video the other day with Mark Wahlberg's daily schedule. The dude goes to bed at 7:30pm and gets up at 2:30 am to workout. That's insane!
Re:Fact vs. Fiction: Truths from Inside the Shaolin Temple by watwut on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @02:05AM (#18549779)
The difference was not just waking up in the morning. It is also "foreign students come out in the afternoon".

It makes sense to me. Going easier foreigner program was the plan the whole time. Just because you put a lot into training and commitment does not mean there is no line and you will put in infinite amount of all that. He wanted quality training, he did not wanted to become lifetime monk.