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Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by fao_ on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:55AM (#18532221)
> Do we really want the government to have that much say in whether businesses live or die?

The company broke the law in a way that could have potentially harmed* individuals (passwords are critical secrets, many users do not have more than one, and so could lose their entire identity and maybe several years worth of funds. Sure, you can say that is the fault of the user, but there is the assumption of security here that was given by the company and not fulfilled).

If you rent a deposit box at a bank, with the assumption of safety, and it turns out they leave all the doors unlocked, don't hire guards, and someone came in and stole everyone's things and took them to the market, then closure of the bank is absolutely deserved.

Conversely, if a prison gives the assumption of security, but doesn't hire guards, or bother locking cells, and all the inmates walk out and some people are killed, does the prison deserve to go bankrupt?

These examples are exaggerated, yes, but roughly similar in circumstance. Hopefully enough to show that, yes, there are circumstances in which we want the government to have that hold over companies.

Now, do we want governments to have restraint? Sure. But it seems clear to me that they very openly are acting in restraint in this case. 20k EUR is a pittance to what was potentially lost by the people involved in the breach.

* - (Indeed, in America and a few other countries with weak to non-existent social welfare nets, loss of identity and money is likely to lead to homelessness and eventual death for the person, if they do not have family to rely on).

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by thaumasiotes on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:56AM (#18532230)
> If you rent a deposit box at a bank, with the assumption of safety, and it turns out they leave all the doors unlocked, don't hire guards, and someone came in and stole everyone's things and took them to the market, then closure of the bank is absolutely deserved.

OK, but I don't think any government action to close the bank would be necessary in that case.

So how does giving the government a say help?

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by orf on Monday November 26, 2018 @05:01AM (#18532248)
In that example the goods stolen are tangible and have real, solid value that anybody can recognize.

In the case of things covered by GDPR the value is opaque and intangible, and only valuable to certain people. Letting 'the free hand of the market, driven by the layman who doesn't understand this, is not effective.

If you want proof, well, it's in the pudding.

Edit: also, if banks wheew getting knocked over as much as sites and apps, the government would intervene

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by close04 on Monday November 26, 2018 @05:11AM (#18532287)
I have yet to see a person against regulation that didn't run screaming for the authorities as soon as they were tricked, swindled, defrauded, abused by some company because no regulation was put in place.

Most recent cases that come to mind are Bitcoin thefts. "The government shouldn't do anything to regulate or even look in the general direction of Bitcoin". Oh, the exchange left your pockets empty? "The Police and the government should do something!"

Companies aren't scared of consumers because as a mass they have no idea what's good for them or how to protect themselves. Without a watchdog we'd all just be open for abuse with no leverage to stop it. Companies are far more motivated and capable to abuse you than you are to defend yourself.

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by ivanhoe on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:51AM (#18532644)
It's not the same situation because in the case of a bank the risk is obvious to anyone, but it's might be hard for non-tech users of a chat app to understand the dangers of unencrypted passwords. It's the same like regulating the other industries, say layman can't assess how good lawyer or civil engineer someone is, so government requires them to have certain education and licenses or they can't work. We will need something like that sooner or later in IT because there's simply too much amateurism in industry now, where everyone and their mother has a startup these days and people with no proper experience and knowledge are trying to handle often very sensitive things. Just look at crypto-market and all those hacked sites - not hacked because hackers are evil geniuses, but because programmers who built them suck at their job... and market can't regulate it itself because the demand is so damn high
Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by saurik on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:48AM (#18532637)
> ...passwords are critical secrets, many users do not have more than one, and so could lose their entire identity and maybe several years worth of funds. Sure, you can say that is the fault of the user, but there is the assumption of security here that was given by the company and not fulfilled...

I have so little sympathy for this position that despite generally having been pro-GDPR I no longer can support it if it is going to be used to encourage users to do something fundamentally stupid :/. The reality is that if we are going to make users think using one password is somehow ok then we need to be using authentication protocols that don't involve sending that password to a server in the first place: this is 2018, and challenge response takes like an hour to implement; the idea that sending a critical password to someone in the hope that they immediately hash it and store it is something that is somehow protected is insane.

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by bryanrasmussen on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:01AM (#18532689)
I have little sympathy for the position that users just need to be not stupid and do things differently like they have been told to do for the last 20 years and yet have never done.
Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by saurik on Monday November 26, 2018 @03:48PM (#18536666)
...but what they are doing will never actually be secure no matter how hard we all cover our ears and scream into the void so we don't hear it when they keep getting screwed over and over again. We can't actually make that secure no matter how many passwords we hash, we can only attempt to mitigate some fraction of the eventual carnage.

What we need to be doing is spending our time either on a massive education campaign or on technological solutions (like challenge response passwords, which HTTP never added even while every other old protocol was carefully adapting to get this right), not entrenching the position that users should be allowed to do the thing that will never ever ever be secure by putting up laws that somehow make it look sane.

The point here isn't "shame on the users": the point here is "shame on developers and lawmakers for working against users by encouraging them to do this horribly insecure thing rather than doing something sane". Seriously: how about we instead make a law (with a GDRP-like lead up of multiple years to "get ready for it") which says that "handling passwords at all isn't legal, even in transit (whether on a third-party SSL termination service or on your own servers)", and lets see how many mere hours it suddenly takes the Chrome/Firefox teams to come up with a real solution to this problem?

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by kiriakasis on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:42AM (#18540633)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18380865#18381842

Passwords will never die. also by outlawing them either you force everyone to re-register to every site they want to visit or give all the power to single-sign-on services like facebook and google.

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by matthewmacleod on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:17AM (#18532761)
That's a really weak argument.

The fact that users do insecure things—and that real-world systems need to be designed to deal with that fact—is orthogonal to the idea that we should be making things more secure as well. Yes – security is broken and we need to fix it. The way to do that is emphatically not to pretend that it's already fixed.

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by saurik on Monday November 26, 2018 @03:44PM (#18536637)
The problem is that this does pretend it is "already fixed": the attitude that we have legal mechanisms in place to try to make "users do this thing that will never ever ever actually be secure" somehow legally protected means that people think it should be ok and keep doing it.

I mean, seriously: why would the law make it so illegal to allow passwords to be dumped, with technical people coming out saying "these passwords might protect something really important as the user is using the same password on more than one thing", if that wasn't at all how you were supposed to use passwords?

Imagine if the opposite were the case: if banks were not liable for any money lost by a user if it could be shown that the user was using their banking password for any other service. That would be a very different conceptualization of the risks and how passwords work, and frankly "fits reality" better than what people seem to want out of this situation (which is the exact opposite of that) :(.

If you don't want to claim that the issue is "already fixed" by "a bunch of websites that know what they are doing hash passwords and hopefully never have code bugs or people tapping their web servers or employees who can modify the code or debug logs that dump POST requests accessible to anyone or any other number of ways this password could be leaked because you sent it to this company's web server (which quite often might have used some SSL termination from some third party and so who knows how many people have access to your password!)", we might come up with actual solutions (or maybe spend the effort to educate users, as right now I don't know anyone who really tries).

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by kiriakasis on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:46AM (#18540650)
> if banks were not liable for any money lost by a user if it could be shown that the user was using their banking password for any other service.

I believe in some places this is the case.

If you get hacked or use 123456 as password it is not the bank fault. If a service get hacked and the attacker discover your bank password it is not the service fault if they did their due diligence in securing your data.

Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by simion314 on Monday November 26, 2018 @08:46AM (#18533278)
Even if I use a unique strong password, if the chat service stores it in plain text, a hacker can get the pass from the database and login with my identity and cause who know how many problems, having a strong password and unique did not helps me if the service stores it in plain text or some bad hash.
Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by ketzu on Monday November 26, 2018 @08:39AM (#18533229)
Implementing challenge response in your javascript that you serf yourself is, for the general public, not much different from trusting them to hash it on the server.
Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by saurik on Monday November 26, 2018 @03:35PM (#18536565)
We've only had like, what, two decades to add a feature to a web browser that handles this better than "type your password into this box, rendered by the server and controlled by the server to be sent to the server, in a form where it is given exactly the password"?
Re:Chat app fined for plaintext passwords under GDPR by kiriakasis on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:48AM (#18540661)
Regarding this point a "generate password" on the right click menu would be fantastic in a browser.

most people use the built in password manager anyway