That is even more of a reason to oppose it in my opinion as an American. The last thing you want to give fascists is a preboxed mechanism for control to say label those who call death camps unconsciousable "hate speech against native citizens". Since they /will/ twist laws every way they can and ignore them against themselves.

thank you. this is exactly my point. the only reason this is implemented is to shield those in power further and allow them to hunt down anyone who they deem in violation of what constitutes their version of free speech.

Note that this is not yet implemented.

However, the main point is that "would even cheer for fascists" includes "would even cheer for people hunting down anyone who they deem in violation of what constitutes their version of free speech", which doesn't seem like a very effective way to fight exactly that.

if you have a radical group on the left that would remove these people from power then these would automatically be labeled fascists. fascists are automatically terrorists if their ambition is to overthrow the status-quo.

So if I had instead originally written "I would cheer for terrorists", would have made it more sense? I wrote fascist because it seemed to capture our times better. I could have also written "criminals". It would not made any difference.

A good example of where this may impact us is the Catalan government wanting to split from Spain. Will blogs from these people be deemed of terrorist nature then? So even it is not yet implemented, putting this forward as a proposal is pretty outrageous.

You don't have to convince me that this proposal is bad - I agree with you. I'm pointing out that your alternative (supporting terrorists, fascists, or whatever) is even worse. If you support terrorists that terrorise those trying to get this passed, that support will also help terrorists that, say, want to terrorise people who campaign for Catalan independence.

The rise of fascists is EXACTLY WHY we should make sure such values are protected, not an excuse to abandon them. Do you really think you can prevent the rise of fascism by forbidding speech? How would that work?

It's based on the observation that what counts as a 'viable position' is based on social control and totalitarianism is put into place by replacing these social control mechanisms with fear and terror.

In case you didn't get the memo, here is a primer on how to turn a democracy into a totalitarian system:

1. Invent an external scapegoat ('the enemy')

2. Polarize: Either you're with us or with them. Mediating center positions and compromises belong to 'the enemy'. Argue that you're for the simple, honest-working men and against the elites, who belong to 'the enemy'.

3. As part of point 2, push radical radical positions into the public discourse to erode social control mechanisms. ('Why can't I say X' where X is something despicable, like being a racist, being for for genocide, etc., but dressed into a seemingly legitimate 'arguments' and 'concerns'.)

4. Instil fear of the external enemy and, as much as possible, terror against the internal enemy on the streets. Ideally, there should be bands of people on the streets who mug or kill perceived enemies (e.g. the S.A., Bürgerwehren, death squadrons, etc.).

5. As a result of 3-4, once a certain threshold is reached, public discussion has been radicalized and mediating center positions have been quenched. Voting will become a false dilemma between us and them.

6. Seize power by vote or coup, eradicate the remaining control mechanisms, eradicate free media and put them under state control (in a fight against 'fake media'), eradicate remaining political opponents by abusing the justice system (anti-corruption laws work well).

The idea behind limiting freedom of speech is to prevent 2-3 from reaching a critical threshold that enables 4 & 5.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

"Fascists", "racists" and other wonderful terms are the same scapegoats, but used by other ideological movements for their own benefit. Everything you describe can be attributed to them as well. What's funny is that they basically give fascists and others power because they use these terms to discredit everyone who opposes them, thus making descent human beings be silent, while the common population slowly becomes angry and the only support among politicians they could find are before mentioned "fascists" (of which many aren't actually fascists at all, they just see potential benefits of expressing such ideas). Don't try to rationalize censorship. Don't paternalize common population. If you limit freedom of speech, you don't limit it for dishonest people, they will always find a way to express their position. Would I open your eyes if I say that Europe just copies the same laws used by authoritarian regimes to suppress opposition? I am not exaggerating. They literally copy Russian and Chinese laws. Do you think their laws say "expressing any critics of the regime is forbidden and is punishable with 3-4 years of jail", etc.? No, they say that "justifying Fascism, terrorism is forbidden". They just label everyone as "Fascist", "terrorist", "radical". If you do believe that Europe does this with good intentions for people, you are naive.

Totalitarianism is well-defined and there is no problem discerning it from a working democracy. I deliberately used the term to make it clear that it's completely irrelevant to the discussion which brand of totalitarianism is involved - it ranges from communism to the Nazi movement of the 3rd Reich.

To reply to the unjustified sentiments in the rest of your post and the ad hominem attack: I didn't justify anything, I tried to lay out the reasons that are given as the motivation of limitations of freedom of speech in existing EU countries.

These reasons are part of a much larger puzzle, and there are many more considerations to take into account - especially legal an procedural ones, but also democratic division of power issues - before a meaningful discussion of a particular measure of limiting freedom of speech could even begin.

Your reply is the typical example of the frequent use of false dichotomies in public discussions of such matters. It's resting on the obviously false dichotomy that either there is no free speech at all or absolute, totally unrestricted freedom of speech otherwise. Implicitly, it is probably also on the fallacious slippery slope argument that if you limit freedom of speech in some specific, highly controlled way (e.g. under direct judicial oversight with high hurdles), then the restrictions will still invariably worsen over time. That's highly doubtful, too, and at least you'd expect an argument for it.

Returning to the particular case: Yes, I do believe that Europe does this with good intentions. It's absolutely stupid to think anyone in the EU Parliament or in the EU commissions has bad intentions in general. There is no reason to attribute bad intentions to everyone who disagrees with you. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. No, I don't think this particular proposition is good in any way whatsoever, pretty much for the in my opinion correct reasons laid out in the mozilla blog.

Yeah, but unless you're going full totalitarian, I don't see how it can work. It will just add additional legitimacy to the speech which is 'suppressed'. So unless you want to do a china style great firewall, and punish people for speaking out, maybe it's better to actually defend freedom, instead of limiting freedom in the name of protecting freedom?

Sorry if I sound frustrated. But I just think all this anti-free speech is a knee-jerk reaction to the symptoms of the rising far-right, not a well thought-out strategy of preserving liberal democracy.

One of the most effective tools of propaganda ist repeating falsehoods until they "feel true". Limiting speech probably works against that.

"probably works" without any evidence is not the standard I feel should be set for taking away the most basic freedoms.

> The rise of outspoken fascists and racists

Do you have any data to backup "rise", because it sure looks like increased media coverage of fringe groups and not any sort of actual rise in these things.

If you want to protect "everyday people", "free speech at all costs" is the way to do it. Otherwise the people in power will decide what speech is allowed and what isn't.