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Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by klenwell on Monday November 12, 2018 @12:22PM (#18433959)
> I think a lot of people would pay twice as much for their devices if they could guarantee the workers weren't being exploited.

A lot of America has traded their old Main Street for a Walmart shopping complex the next town over. Now they're upgrading that to an Amazon distribution center in the next state over.

On this board, I expect a lot of people will explain (unsympathetically but not completely unreasonably) that the benefits of these exploitative conditions outweigh the costs (this unfortunate soul's death included).

I think you can have reasonably priced quality products and worker well-being, but good luck making your case to shareholders and their apologists.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by adamc on Monday November 12, 2018 @12:57PM (#18434233)
What would need to rise is a collective consciousness of what a shitty system this is. Most people are too distracted to even pay attention, let alone do something about it.
Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by asdff on Monday November 12, 2018 @01:10PM (#18434347)
> Most people are too distracted to even pay attention, let alone do something about it.

This is by design. As long as it's profitable to exploit labor, nothing will change. It is far far easier to keep people distracted and blind to all of this than it is to make them 'wake up,' or make any changes to their lives.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by clayg on Monday November 12, 2018 @02:33PM (#18434996)
> This is by design. As long as it's profitable to exploit labor, nothing will change.

Do you by chance believe in "Intelligent Design" as an explanation for complex biological systems? It's not obvious to me that inefficient social systems (i.e. not optimized for worker/human happiness) require "design"? If we create an organism who's survival condition is "generate profit" won't it just do that as efficiently as we let it? When I think about exploitative systems as requiring "malice by design" I rarely seem to uncover a solution other than "wait for someone else to be less evil" or occasionally "live with it and treat the worst of the symptoms".

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by jancsika on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:46AM (#18438908)
To me the irony is that you seem to narrow Intelligent Design to merely mean a fatuous scientific theory that is unnecessary for explaining the development of complex biological systems. But the very inception of Intelligent Design was in fact "malicious by design."[1]

Intelligent Design was the functional equivalent of `s/creationism/intelligent design/g` in a creationist textbook to get around a Supreme Court ban from 1987. That revised textbook was then banned by a district court in 2005.

I'm fairly certain that Ken Miller and the many others who fought to keep that book out of classrooms in 2004-05 understood clearly that the "Intelligent Design" side was acting in bad faith. I'm also fairly certain they weren't constrained by their knowledge of the "designed malice" of the other side but instead used that fact to rally more citizens to their cause.

[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8498-judge-intelligen...

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by awnfuron on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:14AM (#18439011)
This maybe isn't the place to get super political but I'll give it a shot.

The systems of production aren't optimized for worker or human happiness, they are optimized for profit making. That is certainly a design choice, at least on a firm-by-firm level. Maybe nobody sat down and said, "how can I make my workers miserable today?" but they have certainly sat down and said, "how can I profit more today?" And typically, when there is a choice between that profit and workers' happiness, profit wins.

Once all or most firms start operating by this logic, the exploitation becomes inescapable. If the firms are smart, they will band together to use some of their profit to influence politics, shaping systems that enable them to make more profits.

"Live with it and treat the worst of the systems" would be sort of like the American Democratic party: enact reforms and put restrictions on what firms can do so that they can't exploit so much. This rarely seems to work, first because firms find a way around restrictions, second because the restrictions are often shaped or even written by the firms that are to be regulated. (If you're going to be regulated, you might as well make it happen on your terms.) As you said, it treats the symptoms but not the cause.

I don't know about "wait for someone else to be less evil", but I suppose that would be people who can see the problems with the current system but propose no solution. Also, you might have some people in this category who do think that the system could work, if only people were nicer to each other. But again, the problem isn't a lack of niceness, it's that the system is optimized for profit at all costs; given a choice between niceness or profit, profit usually wins.

An alternative would be to actually treat the cause of the problem. Have a system where firms are optimized for human needs rather than for profit.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by profalseidol on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:01AM (#18438955)
Social systems is created by Humans consciously. Complex biological systems are by evidence we have, created by evolutionary process and in fact, not intelligent.

Company policy doesn't want you to disclose your salary. I think this is an explicit thought out design. Companies doesn't want worker union, history tells us why.

Church policy to stop people from learning how to read. Church want you to keep believing in God and doctrines and has mutual benefit with the monarch via believe in Divine right.

The people will work towards less control. Just as in computers, centralized power is simply not scalable. We will eventually move towards something like worker-owned cooperatives.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by ravar on Monday November 12, 2018 @10:05PM (#18438145)
I really like this line of questioning as a response to the gp. hopefully I will be able to use this myself.
Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by WalterSear on Monday November 12, 2018 @12:57PM (#18434234)
> A lot of America has traded their old Main Street for a Walmart shopping complex the next town over. Now they're upgrading that to an Amazon distribution center in the next state over.

Despite their convictions to the contrary, those are a different set of people.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by bilbo0s on Monday November 12, 2018 @01:38PM (#18434576)
True.

It's more like "ONE half of America has traded their old Main Street for a Walmart", and "the OTHER half of America is using an Amazon distribution center in the next state over".

I'm not sanguine that Americans would pay fair-trade prices for household products. (And to be completely fair, there's certainly a half of America that just couldn't afford to pay the prices even if they wanted.)

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by ryandrake on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:59PM (#18435755)
> I think you can have reasonably priced quality products and worker well-being, but good luck making your case to shareholders and their apologists.

If the market could bear a higher priced product that’s ethically sourced, why wouldn’t companies simply raise the price to what the market bears, and pocket the profit instead of ethically source it?

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by aneutron on Monday November 12, 2018 @06:31PM (#18436970)
Congratz, you have a grasp of Apple's business model
Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by Nokinside on Monday November 12, 2018 @01:56PM (#18434722)
You would need stronger unions to fix this. China does not allow real unions and US has weird union laws that make their relationship with companies confrontational (really: Unions in Europe and US are very different).
Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by Diederich on Monday November 12, 2018 @02:21PM (#18434899)
> really: Unions in Europe and US are very different

I've heard this before and seen a few specifics. If it's not too much trouble, could you summarize the differences? Thanks!

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by Nokinside on Monday November 12, 2018 @05:13PM (#18436438)
The US has enterprise-level or workplace level bargaining. Most European countries have sector-level bargaining.

In the US workplaces are divided into unionized and non-unionized. Unionized firm is in competitive disadvantage against non-unionized firms. This results a situation where firms fight against unionization very aggressively and unions respond in same. It's very confrontational and aggressive.

In Europe firms with more union members are not in competitive disadvantage relative to firms with fewer union members, because negotiations happen sector level. For example restaurant workers union(s) meet restaurant business representatives and they make industry-wide agreements.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by simion314 on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:33PM (#18435484)
I am not OP, I do not have links to facts but I can give you some examples from people I know, there may be other industries companies with worse conditions.

- working extra hours is paid double and this hours are limited

- you are forced to take you vacation days off, you can't chose the money and work the full year

- your work place provides you food or you get "food tickets" that you can use in stores to buy only food.

- if you have to work on national holly-day you will get paid double

- you are not forced to be a member of any union

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by whatshisface on Monday November 12, 2018 @05:17PM (#18436479)
>your work place provides you food or you get "food tickets" that you can use in stores to buy only food.

That doesn't make sense to me, different people have dietary preferences of different levels of expense. What's the reasoning behind this?

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by simion314 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:41AM (#18439359)
I think you would like the places that offer you food tickets, this means on top of your pay you get extra tokens to buy food. Some places(not as often) have special places where you can sit and eat cooked food.

I think this is good so the workers won't skip on food, it is also a negotiation thing, when I see offers I see that you get paid X amount + food tickets.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by ghostly_s on Monday November 12, 2018 @02:19PM (#18434878)
Any readings on how European unions work?
Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by harrumph on Monday November 12, 2018 @03:18PM (#18435347)
>Any readings on how European unions work?

To me, the major and defining difference between US vs. European management/labor relationships is found in Germany's principle of co-determination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Under these rules, the boards of directors of companies in Germany are required to include a significant portion of their voting membership to be drawn from worker population. As such, governorship of the company is at least partially beholden to the input of the persons who create all its value.

This is starkly contrasted by US capitalism, where the workers who create all the company's value have effectively no say (apart from collective bargaining and strike) in any directions the company takes. The idea of workers voting on the board is laughable in the states.

Co-determination was enshrined right after WWII, in part because the Germans looked around at the industrialized barbarism of the Third Reich and asked themselves "how can we prevent this from ever happening again"? The answer they came up with, in more ways than just co-determination, was to pointedly not hand the country's capitalists everything they wanted. They decided to place serious checks upon the power of capitalists.

It's important to never forget that once in power, the Third Reich's first act was to round up, imprison and murder labor union leadership, socialists and communists. Co-determination is one way to remember.

Re:The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker by Nokinside on Monday November 12, 2018 @05:13PM (#18436445)
The US has enterprise-level or workplace level bargaining. Most European countries have sector-level bargaining.

In the US workplaces are divided into unionized and non-unionized. Unionized firm is in competitive disadvantage against non-unionized firms. This results a situation where firms fight against unionization very aggressively and unions respond in same. It's very confrontational and aggressive.

In Europe firms with more union members are not in competitive disadvantage relative to firms with fewer union members, because negotiations happen sector level. For example restaurant workers union(s) meet restaurant business representatives and they make industry-wide agreements.