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Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by ChuckMcM on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:04PM (#18416432)
I don't disagree, what I wonder about is how management sees this as a better alternative than serving their customers. I expect it is a "damned if you do damned if you don't" type situation.

They are at a tremendous disadvantage as a 'web' experience because you're getting there through Google, Facebook, or Bing rather than landing directly on their page so they have already paid that platform to put you in front. The App means they have full control over the experience and can charge restaurants directly to move them around in the search results (more revenue).

So at some point I presume the go full "Yellow Pages" and just charge venues a monthly fee to appear at all in their pages. That works if they are generating significant foot traffic into the venue but fails if they can't connect the app/website use with the visit.

All in all I don't see how they can make a business here.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by stcredzero on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:21PM (#18416566)
So at some point I presume the go full "Yellow Pages" and just charge venues a monthly fee to appear at all in their pages. That works if they are generating significant foot traffic into the venue but fails if they can't connect the app/website use with the visit.

I think it's useful at this point to ask why various directories had value during their heyday. The "Yellow Pages" had value, simply because there wasn't as comprehensive a localized listing otherwise. Yelp had value at first, because the reviews and ratings combined with the location search were super useful. Unfortunately, too many people realized how valuable this was and the gaming of the system on all sides started, greatly reducing the usefulness of the Yelp directory.

Google might be able to create a such directory based solely on traffic and AI identification of the type of business? Could AI identify long lines outside of restaurants? Maybe Google should buy Yelp, which would solve the "pay Google up front" conundrum. Whatever IP Yelp has which killed the "near" searches on Google would also cease to be an impediment to Google.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by cgriswald on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:45PM (#18416774)
> Unfortunately, too many people realized how valuable this was and the gaming of the system on all sides started, greatly reducing the usefulness of the Yelp directory.

I'm not sure if this is exactly it or if you're letting Yelp off the hook. Yelp was perfectly happy to try to profit from the gaming. That didn't just damage its usefulness. It damaged trust; and trust is a lot harder to get back.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by stcredzero on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:52PM (#18416836)
I'm not sure if this is exactly it or if you're letting Yelp off the hook.

Not letting them off the hook. Yelp contributed to this through their actions.

It damaged trust; and trust is a lot harder to get back.

That was a part of what I was thinking about. One advantage of the Yellow Pages: less opportunity to lose trust. I think displaying AI interpreted traffic has a key advantage over ratings: It would cost a whole lot more money to get crowds to show up day after day with smartphones, than it would cost to get people to astroturf ratings.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by ubercore on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:32PM (#18416673)
> Could AI identify long lines outside of restaurants

Google already gives you the hours that restaurants are busiest, so they basically have this info

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by stcredzero on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:44PM (#18416759)
I've seen that part of the Google listing, which is part of the reason why I made the suggestion. Google shouldn't just go by raw traffic, however. Traffic means different things at different times to different kinds of venues. High traffic at the DMV doesn't mean it's an awesome place. A line of 20 people means one thing to a sit down restaurant and something very different to a Boba tea place.

I suspect that AI applied here would be highly useful.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by ubercore on Friday November 09, 2018 @02:37PM (#18417203)
Right but if you're talking about restaurants, where people want to be (rather than the DMV where they have to be), I don't see why busyness isn't essentially the same as looking at lines outside.
Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by stcredzero on Friday November 09, 2018 @02:53PM (#18417348)
A line of 20 outside a sit down restaurant that isn't even open means one thing if it's 30 minutes before it opens, another if it's already open. A line of 10 in front of a Boba tea place means something very different than a line of 10 in front of a sit down restaurant.

Busyness wouldn't just be used as a measure of busyness. It could be used as a proxy for other qualities. Another example: There are restaurants that have ample waiting areas and others that have none. Those in the waiting area wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing to a customer's experience than the same people seated at a table. Likewise for people standing outside vs. waiting inside.

At a very basic level, throughput (Little's Law) should also be taken into account.

My point is there would be value in such proxy measures, if some AI were used for interpretation.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by wutbrodo on Friday November 09, 2018 @02:51PM (#18417335)
> Google might be able to create a such directory based solely on traffic and AI identification of the type of business? Could AI identify long lines outside of restaurants?

Google already does plenty of stuff like this, and has for years (including historical and live busyness). Hell, I haven't used Yelp in years, because their app is generally less usable, isn't integrated with Maps (for directions etc), and cripples mobile web by not letting you see most of the content. Though it's possible that the data for G Maps is only comparably rich because of my location, and that Yelp has a data advantage in many more markets.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by stcredzero on Friday November 09, 2018 @03:29PM (#18417694)
Google already does plenty of stuff like this, and has for years (including historical and live busyness).

I'm well aware. There's a cousin comment about using such data with contextual information and AI to use traffic data as a proxy for attributes like popularity and quality, instead of providing the raw data and letting users make their own inferences. This would enable a more Yelp-like UX, and might be easier for lots of users to consume.

Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by ma2rten on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:22PM (#18416583)
This is related to what you are saying, but I think the main reason is that the app has better user retention (push notifications, icon on your home screen). Also they get location data.
Re:Yelp craters 30% as advertisers abandon the site by spiznnx on Friday November 09, 2018 @06:38PM (#18418954)
I worked at Yelp 2 years ago and can say that the main reason is definitely because web traffic is not reliable, it changes with Google ranking changes. And Google and Yelp are not good friends. They are super concerned with not dying if they stop showing up in Google.