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Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by acdha on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:49AM (#18399432)
My $.10 proposal: change Veterans Day to be the 2nd Tuesday in November. Almost no cost, there's a strong “they served so you would have this right” angle, and it'd pair naturally with other civic events.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by toyg on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:00AM (#18399531)
With all due respect, ideologically linking the military and democracy is a horrifically bad idea. The two systems embody completely opposite concepts.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by nine_k on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:18PM (#18401466)
Apparently, voting rights and military duty are intrinsically linked since ancient times.

Greek and Roman citizens had the right to vote linked to their duty of military service at times of war. E.g. Athens had lots of free non-citizens who did not have that privilege and that duty. (Also look up the etymology of the word "idiot".)

Democratic institutions in Europe started to crop up (sometimes as a result of revolutions) when subjects to a particular crown started to be drafted, and thus learned military skills. Nobility, who traditionally had some freedoms and could even be elected to various councils and parliaments under a monarch were also usually bound to military service.

People of the US in particular won their right to vote as free citizens (and not be subjects to British crown) in a literal war in 1775-83 (and then again in 1812).

That "price of freedom is eternal vigilance" idea also links these two ideas pretty tightly.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by toyg on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:09PM (#18402430)
Your line of thinking is exemplary of what I was talking about: “violence first, democracy later”, “democracy comes from fighting”, and soon enough thousands of people are sent to die for nothing in a Middle-Eastern desert.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by nine_k on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:22PM (#18402530)
It just so happens that in the real world independence can only be defended by force.

In a civilized society, this force is normally only exerted by specially designated people, the police force, and, more rarely, by citizens defending themselves against assault.

But any society that wants to preserve itself has to have an army, or some other kind of a self-defense force, else the first invader to come by will overrun and subdue it. Delegating this to someone who are not the citizens possible to an only very limited extent.

Violence is not a great thing, sure, but sometimes it's the lesser evil, when the greater evils are serfdom or extermination. What a civilized society has to curb is aggression, which is the source of violence.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by toyg on Thursday November 08, 2018 @06:31AM (#18405601)
Even if you assume that violence is a necessary evil, there is no need to exhalt it or link it to the democratic expression of will. By doing so, you end up favouring a reverence to military structures, which are completely anti-democratic in nature and prone to be twisted towards external aggression. That is my point.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by lenkite on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:34AM (#18412741)
“If your role in life is that of peacemaker, you must resign yourself to the fact that sometimes, peace can only be made through force. Peace is a condition that exists only when those who hate to fight are better prepared to do so than those who love to. It is very simple and very easy to kill. If you would learn to neutralize an opponent while doing them the minimum possible amount of harm, you must master the art of attack; master it more thoroughly than any killer ever needs to"
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by nine_k on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @05:29PM (#18402921)
> thousands of people are sent to die for nothing in a Middle-Eastern desert

This is sad. I don't like wars. A war is only worth it when all other means fail. I only see the point in defensive wars; the 1991 war in the Middle-Eastern desert was that, protecting Kuwait. Later, not so much, to say the least.

> violence first, democracy later

Rather, "independence first, democracy based on that". I don't see how this Middle-Eastern warfare ever helped US independence, or e.g. Iraqi independence. Except maybe it helped a bit Afghani independence, because Taliban long-term would likely be even worse that the total disarray they're having now.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by JStanton617 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:21AM (#18400119)
“There’s a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.”
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by anc84 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:05AM (#18399562)
Seems fitting for the US, as sad as it is... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War#Bri...
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by maxerickson on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:10AM (#18399588)
I would like to know more.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by lbotos on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:16AM (#18400076)
If this was a subtle starship trooper reference, bravo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdrjzE1SE58 (depictions of violence, satire)

For those that don't know, Starship troopers is a scathing satire about how "war makes fascist of us all".

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by nine_k on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:21PM (#18401483)
Starship Tropers the movie is a brilliant "anti-anti-utopian" story.

To my puzzlement, some people don't notice how ironic it is, throughout.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:39AM (#18400269)
The movie has its ups and downs, but the propaganda interludes were absolutely brilliant. I believe in the context of this discussion, the most relevant one is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_5UZfwX0ss.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by starbeast on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:20PM (#18401479)
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by heavenlyblue on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:58PM (#18401870)
I haven't found anything ironic about that movie up until now - last time I watched them was when I were about 11. Thanks.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by maxerickson on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:19AM (#18400102)
I thought it was pretty blatant TBH.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by starbeast on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:50PM (#18401221)
Lummox thought so too. Now I must get back to raising John Thomases.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by starbeast on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:38AM (#18399782)
When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived.

(Other than being an authority, presumably. Notwithstanding authorities on violence, such as Heinlein)

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by ckastner on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:55AM (#18399919)
How is democracy the opposite concept to the military? Or was that just poorly phrased?
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by toyg on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:12PM (#18402453)
Try voting out your sergeant.

Try having a political leader jailing people who don’t do what he tells them to do.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by ckastner on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:43AM (#18404896)
Ah, so you're comparing them on basis of formation of will.

That's not the point that was made, however. The post you replied to connected the military to democracies as protectors of their physical integrity.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by toyg on Thursday November 08, 2018 @06:26AM (#18405585)
The distinction is subtle and lost on most people. By liniking the military to elections, you can bet good money that every politician in the country would jump on acritical "support the troops" propaganda lines that result in de-facto fascism, like the US experienced under G.W. Bush.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by Tsubasachan on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:31PM (#18401084)
The first thing any State does is place the military under civilian government control. This is actually a huge part of the Constitution (the Founding Fathers were very clever and they all read Ceasar's biography).
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by robben1234 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @05:37AM (#18405452)
Well if it wasn't linked US soldiers would still be denied of voting despite being drafted at 18 in WWII.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by pwg on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:38AM (#18400253)
This suggestion is not likely to go very far. The reason Nov. 11 is Veteran's Day is that it is in honor of the armistice with Germany that formally ended World War I:

"major hostilities of World War I were formally ended at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918, when the Armistice with Germany went into effect." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day

So any attempt to 'move' Veteran's Day will likely meet resistance due to this connection. This is also why this day is a fixed calendar day (at least in the US) rather than a "first/second/third Monday of the month" type holiday like most of the other official federal holidays. It shares the same connection with specific exact calendar dates as does the 4th of July, Christmas, and New Year's day.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by acdha on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:26PM (#18401050)
I would argue that the number of people who know this is a tiny fraction of the population and, unsettling as it is to contemplate, in the subsequent century we’ve had major wars which are equally important to commemorate so it’s not like a single date can cover all of them.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by Tsubasachan on Thursday November 08, 2018 @04:14AM (#18405212)
I doubt America WANTS to remember every war. Only the popular ones that it won. WW1 they were on the winning side and WW2 they were the good guys.

The Korean war is more murky. Almost nobody knows it now but South Korea was a military dictatorship, not a paragon of democracy and freedom.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by philwelch on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:34PM (#18401105)
The First World War was the second most recent major war in American history, and I think the statute of limitations has passed on making V-J Day a national holiday.

Veterans Day/Armistice Day is also one of the few secular national holidays that we share with most Western countries.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by slededit on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:49PM (#18402281)
Strange you don't consider Vietnam a major war. I won't blame you for forgetting Korea though as even contemporaries did so.

For me the definition of "major war" is were civilians forcibly conscripted.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by philwelch on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:47PM (#18403300)
Total deaths of the Vietnam War, on all sides, were around 1.5 million. Korea was around 1.2 million.

WWII was 50-90 million and WWI was 40 million. Vietnam and Korea (two conflicts that my father actually fought in) were wars, for sure, but not major wars compared to the World Wars.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by slededit on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:05PM (#18403384)
US had 418,500 WWII deaths, and Korea had 128,650. Both within the same order of magnitude of each other. Vietnam surprisingly had only 60,000 US deaths - it is more notable for the resistance at home it spawned.

There's no reasonable way to conclude these were not "major" wars in the context of US history.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by philwelch on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:08PM (#18403880)
In the context of US history, the World Wars transformed the United States from a parochial, isolationist regional power into a powerful superpower.

The Korean War transformed the United States from a country that occupied half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government to a country that occupies half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government. Vietnam transformed the United States into a slightly less interventionist country for 20-30 years and reduced the scope of Johnson's social welfare reforms.

The World Wars also saw the wide-scale mobilization of the entire nation, including rationing, large-scale transformation of American industry to war production, coastal blackouts at night to protect shipping traffic, ubiquitous propaganda, and other measures. World War II was more disruptive to the life of the typical American at home than any other war that didn't physically take place on American soil. (In fact, parts of World War II did take place on American soil.) Korea and Vietnam--"major" wars maybe in isolation, but not at all compared to WWII.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by slededit on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:51PM (#18404039)
I never argued about the relative importance of the wars, just that your bar for "major" is extremely high.

You also forget about Korea as the start of the communist domino theory that directly led to the Vietnam intervention. And vastly understate the cultural changes that happened as a result of the Vietnam war protests.

Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by philwelch on Thursday November 08, 2018 @12:14PM (#18407854)
Korea and Vietnam simply weren’t as significant as the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, the First World War, or the Second World War. They weren’t completely insignificant historical events, but they also just aren’t comparable to the half dozen biggest wars in US history, and that’s what I call “major wars” because the marginal difference between WWII and Korea is so much bigger than the marginal difference between Korea and, say, Grenada.
Re:“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming by cypherpunks01 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:55AM (#18399485)
That's a pretty good idea! Would have the positive effect on voter turnout without negative economic effect of an extra holiday.