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Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by billyjobob on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @08:50AM (#18399046)
Whoever thought the placebo effect was a ‘trick’?

It’s well established that the mind controls the brain which controls the body. (And the other way around, too). A physiological problem in the mind can cause a chemical problem in the brain which can cause a ‘physical’ problem in the body. Or heal a problem in the body.

Quotes around physical because mind and body are both physical. If doctors are surprised by this it must be because they are still clinging to some form Cartesian dualism.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by IX-103 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:33PM (#18400659)
And yet placebos do not seem to significantly affect objective measures (they do not improve respiratory volume in asthma for instance). Placebos only seem to work when the mind is also in the measurement loop. That's why we wonder if the patient is actually better or we just think they are.

There is some limited evidence that placebos have some actual effect on reducing pain, but it's hard to separate the effects for many conditions.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by WA on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:56PM (#18400819)
This is what I always wondered. Most placebo studies work with pain/chronic pain. But can you somehow use the Placebo effect to reduce the duration of the flu? Or other infections? Does a good patient-doctor relationship (article says that this is an important factor in Placebos) promote faster recovery when a virus is involved?

Edit: Although even here, you often need to trust the answer of a patient about their well-being and can’t necessarily pinpoint the duration of the flu to measurable symptoms only.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by monkeynotes on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:21PM (#18401018)
I am not really sure we can say that the mind is purely 'physical' with conviction. I think to assert that the mind is as physical as the body falls well short of comprehending the complexities of mind that are truly distinct from body.

This article supports a plausible theory that the mind is a complex system and does not define easily as being purely local to the body:

https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-your-mind-isnt-confined...

I think when it comes to mind/consciousness the humble position is to say "we don't know enough yet". Humans are certainly not so enlightened that we can define ourselves with precision and we should operate in the world with appropriate humility.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by cco on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:10AM (#18399591)
For clarity could you please briefly define "mind"?
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by carapace on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:48AM (#18400330)
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by cco on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:47PM (#18409849)
So in this paradigm mind is to brain what movement is to body?
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by carapace on Monday November 12, 2018 @09:34AM (#18432791)
Hmm, the brain is an organ of the body, is it any more mysterious if "mind", whatever that is, controls the movement of the arm rather than the brain?

If you decide to think of biting a lemon and your saliva glands react, is that any weirder than throwing a ball? If you just think about throwing a ball without doing it your muscles will still contract in "micro-movements" to act out the act of throwing.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by abnry on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:20AM (#18399241)
The placebo is based on belief. You give a sugar pill to someone and they believe it is something more. That's "tricking them."

And yes, I do think most doctors in Western medicine cling to a form of Cartesian dualism. It's somewhat tempered, but the mind body connection is vastly underexplored.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by dwighttk on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:44AM (#18400304)
From the article:

>You don’t even have to deceive the patients. You can hand a patient with irritable bowel syndrome a sugar pill, identify it as such and tell her that sugar pills are known to be effective when used as placebos, and she will get better

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:59AM (#18400420)
I can't point to a source but I remember reading somewhere that the effect is significantly weakened if you tell patients it's just a placebo, although it doesn't vanish.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by Sean1708 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:07PM (#18400478)
FWIR it's more about their expectation of effectiveness, if they believe the placebo will be effective then the placebo will be more effective.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by srtjstjsj on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:09AM (#18399582)
Not always true. All you have to believe is that placebo helps, not that it is not a placebo.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-...

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by Bartweiss on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:28AM (#18400177)
There's an old story about Neils Bohr. He was out at his lakehouse with his students, where he had a horseshoe over the doorframe for luck. One of them was outraged and asked "Professor Bohr, surely you don't believe in this sort of silly superstition!" Bohr answered "Well of course not, that's absurd. But fortunately, it works whether you believe in it or not!"

Which comes to mind because I know a few people who are quite knowledgeable about medicine, committed to evidence and rigor, and also go to treatments like acupuncture regularly. They all do it with that same sort of winking sense that sure, this probably doesn't work double-blind, but as long as I don't focus too hard on that it'll work for me. One or two have even said that they consciously avoided investigating past "it's not harmful" to preserve ambiguity.

I'd always wondered how well that kind of doublethink could do for placebo, and while this isn't exactly the same I'm excited to find a discussion along those lines.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by summerdown2 on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:15PM (#18416519)
Much like Aleister Crowley's joke that explains how Magic works:

”Two strangers sat down opposite each other in a railway carriage. One of the men had on his lap a cardboard box with holes in the top. After some time wondering what might be inside it, the second man said, “Excuse me, but I couldn’t help noticing your box. Does it contain an animal?”

The first man smiled politely. “Yes, a mongoose.”

“A mongoose? Where are you going with that?"

“Ah,” the first man replied, “My sister has terrible dreams. She sees snakes everywhere. I'm taking her the mongoose so it can scare them off."

“But how can that work,” the second man said, “Those are imaginary snakes?”

“Indeed,” his fellow traveller replied. “Which is why this,” and here he lifted the top and tilted it to show an empty box, "is an imaginary mongoose.”

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by Bartweiss on Monday November 12, 2018 @10:59AM (#18433337)
That's excellent.

I think it was also Crowley who commented that of course magic can produce light and fire and all kinds of verifiable signs, but that's all beside the point and so the best magicians are indistinguishable from fakers.

I'm sometimes surprised how many people have hit on some variant of this. It's everywhere from the Black Bible saying that its spells work but have no mechanism of action, to the hacker koan about Tom Knight, to the various "haha only serious" faiths like Discordianism and SubGenius. And it seems like quite a lot of very similarly-minded people arrive at it from different direction - I get the sense that there's a certain mindset that's particularly good for maintaining faith and disbelief simultaneously.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by cpt1138 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:40PM (#18403516)
I was watching the NOVA episode on placebo and the definitive physiological effects placebo had for depression, similar to SSRI's. I could not help wondering if the sugar in the sugar pills actually did make you feel less depressed and wondered if an experiment could be carried out with something inert.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by Novashi on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:23AM (#18399260)
> A physiological problem in the mind can cause a chemical problem in the brain which can cause a ‘physical’ problem in the body. Or heal a problem in the body.

Unless my particular pathways are different and I respond to placebos differently than another population.

You're not wrong that it's well established that there's some effect, but beyond that, it's barely science until we can map these pathways.

So it's still a 'trick'.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by yomly on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:44PM (#18401162)
I don't really find this distinction useful - essentially it comes down to definitions. It's not a treatment that is well understood in the way that some physiological mechanisms may be understood, but trick is an overloaded term and the persisting feeling that it is a trick may well be dampening furthering our knowledge in this space.

In any case after studying some pharmacology, my takeaway really was that "understand" is a pretty relative term - biochemistry is insanely complex and medical chemistry is a pretty fuzzy thing when it boils down to it...

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by rednerrus on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:25AM (#18400152)
It goes both ways, right? The body can create issues that cause chemical problems in the brain.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by MadcapJake on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:04AM (#18399142)
I'm pretty sure doctors didn't write the article name.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by rando444 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:09AM (#18399171)
Right, but where did the article come from at all?

Is it a common misconception that the placebo effect is a 'trick'?

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by castlecrasher2 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:43AM (#18399827)
> Is it a common misconception that the placebo effect is a 'trick'?

My experience says yes, it's a trick. As in, mind may be over matter but if it's a placebo it's worse than the real thing, or at least that's the connotation I had for the word.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by matt4077 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:57PM (#18403339)
It's a trick as in "all the tricks of the trade" or "does the trick", or "the trick is to keep breathing". It does not necessarily have the negative connotation everyone here seems to pick up on, just as it doesn't involve any tricks being turned, two hours wasted at the helm, games of bridge, or sketchy coats of arms.

(This post sponsored by MacOS' built-in dictionary)

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by muthdra on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:45PM (#18403294)
I don't think it's fair to say the mind controls the brain. The relation between the controller and the controlled is reciprocal.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by qubax on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:16AM (#18399212)
> Whoever thought the placebo effect was a ‘trick’?

People pretending to be journalists who need to clickbait to make money.

I wish the nytimes would stop making their headlines a question already.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by kryogen1c on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:41AM (#18399388)
Seriously.

It's universally established and accepted that placebo is a legitimate medical effect. That's one of the major purposes of control groups and double blind studies: many medicines don't make it to market because they have a positive effect LESS than placebo.

Clickbait more and more out of NYT. What a world.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by matt4077 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:24PM (#18403210)
Clickbait doesn't mean what you seem to believe it does ("any headline that isn't the least interesting summary of the article").

More importantly, "trick" may also not mean what you think it does.

It's a rather interesting word, actually. Your interpretation seems to focus on the bad aspects, i. e. deception. But a trick can also be a clever shortcut. It might still involve some make-believe, but puts it in service of a good cause.

That's somewhat closer to the intended meaning here. And it's a perfectly valid way to describe the undeniable peculiarity of placebos.

Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by kevinqiu1 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:46PM (#18401174)
I don't think the point of the article was to say that placebo is a legitimate effect but exploring the philosophy of science implications of the research on placebos the author was reporting on. I'm personally very interested in reading about this sort of stuff and similarly enjoyed their other recent article about Latour but I could also see how someone would think it's non-sense.
Re:What if the Placebo Effect Isn’t a Trick? by srtjstjsj on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:10AM (#18399590)
Teaching people something that you happen to already know is not "clickbait".

https://xkcd.com/1053/