News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by Alex3917 on Friday November 02, 2018 @10:42PM (#18368367)
> If we want to keep housing affordable, we'll have to settle for valuations staying pretty much constant in real dollars forever

This is basically the argument for buying into a co-op rather than buying an apartment. You aren't allowed to flip them for a profit, which means they're less expensive because you're giving up optionality. (At least when they actually are implemented as originally intended.)

To me this makes a ton of sense, because there are a lot of benefits to home ownership for both the individual and society, but real estate generally isn't a good place to put investible dollars unless you're super wealthy and just want some (relatively) predictable income from renters.

What we really need though is public housing for the middle class and upper middle class, rather than just for low-income families. Right now public housing is basically just a scam to transfer money from the middle class to the super wealthy by using money from the middle class to subsidize labor at below a living wage, when in reality everyone needs a house so it's a textbook example of a market where there should be a public option.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by nkoren on Saturday November 03, 2018 @01:38AM (#18368904)
In Singapore, 90% of the housing stock is public housing -- including plenty of fairly upper-class developments. They public housing in a variety of sizes and styles, and to suit every income bracket, thus ensuring that there is no stigma associated with it. Then they use their control over the housing stock to engage in some completely overt social-engineering -- ensuring that no one neighbourhood becomes too concentrated in a single ethnic, religious, or economic bracket.

This is a very long way from how the West does things, but I've got to say that it works exceedingly well there.

(Disclaimer: not an endorsement of All Things Singapore.)

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by thirteen37 on Saturday November 03, 2018 @02:40AM (#18369038)
To relate it to the main article: public housing in Singapore is affordable and an investment.

You can sell it and prices are somewhat market driven but with complicated taxes and limitations to prevent speculation (flipping). It's affordable because, as public housing, there are numerous subsidies, incentives, etc that the government provides to make the initial down payment and subsequent installments as easy as possible.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by puranjay on Saturday November 03, 2018 @02:52AM (#18369068)
A friend who is in the Singapore market right now mentionef that his mortgage payments would be nearly the same as his rent, thanks to the incentives the government gives for home ownership
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by nikanj on Saturday November 03, 2018 @03:52AM (#18369196)
Singapore also has absolutely massive fines for using your home as an AirBnB. In a well-functioning market AirBnB doesn’t matter much, but when supply is artificially constrained via zoning etc, the $150-per-night income from your $1500 per month home is hard to beat.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by chii on Saturday November 03, 2018 @04:55AM (#18369313)
> massive fines for using your home as an AirBnB.

it still exists, and you avoid it by claiming to be a relative visiting. Just make sure you don't bring large amounts of luggage thru the front lobby, or make a nuisance in the building.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by Freak_NL on Saturday November 03, 2018 @05:42AM (#18369412)
Facilitating a citizen in breaking a not unreasonable local law is not something a responsible tourist ought to consider. As a tourist you are a guest of the country you visit; behave as one.

Besides, Singapore is a nation where you probably don't want to break any laws a foreigner. Abetting fraud often is a punishable offence, and you might just become part of a crack-down on illegal subletting to set an example.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by TomMarius on Saturday November 03, 2018 @05:45AM (#18369420)
I agree with the visitor point.

That is not an argument for implementing it at home.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by TomMarius on Saturday November 03, 2018 @05:43AM (#18369416)
Oh yeah, I (of former communist republic origin) have missed constantly looking over my shoulder so much...
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by panic on Saturday November 03, 2018 @07:28AM (#18369714)
Vienna also has a significant amount of public housing: http://cityobservatory.org/housing-policy-lessons-from-vienn...
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by bko on Friday November 02, 2018 @10:56PM (#18368416)
Co ops are just apartments whose land is owned by a corporation. The corporation usually has a perpetual interest only loan on the land. So when you buy a co op you are leasing the land and own a share in the apartment. You tend to give up options but no one really benefits. I don’t know other markets but condos in nyc are prob 30-50% more valuable in part due to these options. It’s cheaper but only because it’s objectively worse as anyone who had to deal with a co op board can attest. You can make things cheaper by making hem less valuable sure, but that’s just destroying value for no reason. Imagine you don’t like how expensive cars are so you make it so that you need a background check and waiting period to buy a car. Will new car prices go down? Probably, but that’s not a good thing
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by quadrangle on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:56PM (#18368605)
A cohousing community done well can be a dramatically superior quality of life worth extra cost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmWrx0ntATU

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:06AM (#18368630)
That's cool, but that's also not what a coop is, at least in the context of this thread.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by quadrangle on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:13PM (#18387529)
The living arrangements in the video are absolutely co-ops. I'm not sure I get how the context is different, other than that there exists other mediocre (or worse) cohousing co-ops.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by CPLX on Saturday November 03, 2018 @09:15AM (#18370031)
“No one benefits” is not an accurate statement at all.

The purpose of a coop is to be able to choose your neighbors in the building.

The reasons for doing so could be indefensible, like keeping out blacks and Jews, or they could be things like ensuring the financial health of the building, blocking people who will engage in endless construction, or avoiding drama by excluding celebrities that draw paparazzi.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by zby on Saturday November 03, 2018 @03:48AM (#18369183)
Shouldn't it be cooperative instead of corporation?
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by cm2012 on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:43AM (#18368748)
I live in a super well run coop in NYC, and it's cheap.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by stevekemp on Saturday November 03, 2018 @02:30AM (#18369015)
In Helsinki each building is owned by a maintenance company - a company that takes fees to cover basic expenses, but which isn't allowed to generate a profit. You don't buy a flat, as such, instead you buy shares in the holding-company.

In short all flats/apartments are cooperatives, but still profit occurs when they're bought and sold. The structure and profit/loss are unrelated.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by buzer on Saturday November 03, 2018 @09:00AM (#18369981)
There isn't really any law that disallows housing cooperative from generating profit per se , but generally there isn't any reason for it to do so. Some very old ones actually do pay dividends and do not ask fees from owners, but that usually requires that the cooperative is debt free and has a way to generate income (i.e. owns some of the apartments/business premises that it rents out) and that it has saved up enough to pay off planned maintenances.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by stevekemp on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:51PM (#18371167)
Interesting stuff, thanks for the clarification.

(I suspect I'm going to find out a lot more about this stuff soon, as I own a studio which is due for some pipe-work .. Joy!)

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by TheCoelacanth on Saturday November 03, 2018 @11:35AM (#18370678)
That sounds similar in practice to a "condominium" in the US. You own your specific apartment and also a share in the whole building.
Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:06AM (#18368626)
> You aren't allowed to flip them for a profit

You most definitely are! At least in New York City. There tends to be a flip tax, but that is just a mechanism of funding the corporation, and it's not the reason prices are lower. (Prices are lower because coops tend to be much less flexible about renting. Many forbid it entirely, and those that allow it will have limits like at most two years out of every five. That basically means there's a class of buyer -- real estate investors -- who have no use for coop units. Lower demand at a fixed level of supply leads to lower price.)

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by Alex3917 on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:16AM (#18368660)
> There tends to be a flip tax

But that can take the form of 90% of any increase over the purchase price if you sell within the first five years, which effectively removes any economic reason to purchase for short term speculation.

Re:Housing can’t both be a good investment and be affordable by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday November 03, 2018 @09:12AM (#18370021)
It can, but I've never heard of a building where this is actually the case.